Boston and P-38's claimed on 21st November 1943

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
One Boston and five P-38's were claimed on the 21st November 1943 according to Tony Woods files.
Can anyone come up with the serial numbers and crew names of these aircraft please ?
Luftwaffe pilots and Units are given in the files.
Thanks
alex

[Dan Johnson]

You sure about the dates? 8th AF 38s weren't flying that day and the MTO 38s didn't lose anyone either.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Dan,
I did refer to the Tony Wood's files.
Alex

[Laurent Rizzotti]

According to the website below, one P-38 of 1st FG was shot down and several damaged:
http://raf-112-squadron.org/1stfghonor_roll.html

"B-26 escort to Fano, Italy on the Adriatic. 6 hours in the air with staging at Decimomannu, home at dark. Saw about 12-15 ME109’s. Had a small scrap but didn’t get a shot. The 27th [FS] was jumped by 4 who damaged two of ours and shot down one, Lt Flynn. We claim one 109 damaged. We were supposed to move today but it has been postponed again, this time until the 23rd C’est La Guerre! Flynn got back. Landed in Italy."

As the pilot came back, there was probably no MACR.

The Boston might be any two-engined bomber flown by USAAF or RAF/RAAF/SAAF in the area.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

By the way the source for these five P-38 claims are the following:
_ three claims with "n.L." comment come from the Luftwaffe claim microfilms used by Tony. I don't know what is the meaning of "n.L." there.

_ two claims come from the books by Mr Jochen Prien & co on "JG 53". This is now an outdated source, from the own words of the author that is now working on a far more up to date series of books on Luftwaffe fighters (including claims and losses lists).

[Dan Johnson]

Interesting to see that comment about the 1st losing a 38.

Quoting from John Mullin's 1st FG History "An Escort of P-38s"

"On the 21st we escorted B-26s to bomb railroad bridges in Italy. Several enemy aircraft were engaged in the target area and two of our planes were damaged slightly"

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
This is from the TonyWood's files

21. November 1943

Jafü Oberitalien

21.11.43 Uffz. Willy Unger: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38F £ S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.382
21.11.43 Ofw. Schmidtz: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 15 km. W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.381
21.11.43 Fw. Ohlig: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 12 km. S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.388
21.11.43 Ofw. Kurt Niederhagen: 11 1./JG 77 Boston £ 3414: 3.500 m. 13.43 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.214

Supplemental Claims from Sources:
21.11.43 Uffz. Dreyer: 1 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - 13.11 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681
21.11.43 Ofw. Hans Kornatz: 27 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - - Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681

So these claims were unfounded ?
Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

Alex

I have now looked in Prien's initial effort (American translation - Schiffer) JG 53 Vol 2 and there are no mentioning in the text of any combat on Nov 21st. In Vol 3 (appendices) he states for Nov 21st
1./JG 53 Uffz Dreyer P-38 13.11H
2./JG 53 Obfw Kornatz P-38
1./JG 53 Uffz Burggraf P-38 (The date of this victory is not verified)
The book was copyrighted in 1998 while the new info from Verbanden Vol 11/II quoted above was published in 2011.

At one point Prien must have located further evidence to exclude Burggraf from the list and adding Ohletz.

At no stage has Prien had Willy Unger or Schmidtz listed in his books.
I believe he is much aware of Woods pages and also the films he quotes.
Have no explanation why they differ of course.

Cheers
Stig

[Dan Johnson]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hello,
This is from the TonyWood's files

21. November 1943
Jafü Oberitalien

21.11.43 Uffz. Willy Unger: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38F £ S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.11 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.382
21.11.43 Ofw. Schmidtz: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 15 km. W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.10 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.381
21.11.43 Fw. Ohlig: n.L. 1./JG 53 P-38 £ 12 km. S.W. Fabriano: 4.200 m. 13.12 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.388
21.11.43 Ofw. Kurt Niederhagen: 11 1./JG 77 Boston £ 3414: 3.500 m. 13.43 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.214

Supplemental Claims from Sources:
21.11.43 Uffz. Dreyer: 1 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - 13.11 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681
21.11.43 Ofw. Hans Kornatz: 27 1./JG 53 P-38 £ - - Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1681

So these claims were unfounded ?
Alex

No 38s were lost, 2-3 damaged. Seems they over claimed that day