Hartmann on the 20Oct43

[Nokose]

Does anyone know if Erich Hartmann's Bf 109 was damaged in a dogfight on 20Aug43? If not were any other Bf 109's damaged in III/JG52.

[Nikita Egorov]

Michael,

What date do you need exactly, August 20 or October 20?

[Nokose]

My mistake the 20Oct43.

[Ota Jirovec]

Nokose,

there was actually no JG 52 loss reported on 20 October 1943 (to any cause), at least not listed in Niko Fast´s loss list in volume IV of his JG 52 work. The closest JG 52 losses were on 19 and 21 October, but they were from I. Gruppe and 13. (Slovak) Staffel. The nearest loss from Hartmann´s 9./JG 52 occurred on 22 October 1943, when Uffz. Walter Buschmann was wounded in aerial combat near Kirovograd in Bf 109 G-4 WNr. 14857 (and DOW on 10 January 1944).

Hope this helps,

Ota

[Nokose]

Thank you Ota. Were there any Bf 109's listed as damaged especially Hartmann's plane on the 20Oct43 in air combat.

[Ota Jirovec]

AFAIK there were no aircraft of JG 52 reported lost or damaged (with extent of damage exceeding 10 %) on this date. Of course, we cannont rule out some minor damage that could be repaired by the unit itself. Is there any reliable source suggesting that Hartmann´s 109 could have been damaged on 20 October 1943?

[Nokose]

Ota, I was reading through "Red Star Airacobra" and there was an incident that the author stated as a wingman he put some rounds into a Bf 109 that shot down his leader. He was then shot and damaged by the Bf 109. Hartmann claimed a double kill of P-39s that morning.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

If he in fact hit the aircraft of Hartmann, the damage would have been lower than the 10% damage limit that would trigger a loss report.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Nokose]

Andreas, here is his description "A red ball of my cannon's shell instantly covered this short distance and pierced the Messer's engine. There was no burst and it meant that it had been an armour-piercing one. One large calibre bullet passed in front of the enemy's cockpit and another pierced it through." He stated he was 20-25 meters from the plane. I believe it was his second mission.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I believe this must have been one of two:

- Complete and utter combat induced delusion

- The recollection of this mission has been mixed up with events from another mission

The cannon of a P39 was afaik the 37mm M4, firing a shell that even if it was an armour-piercing one would blow straight through the engine of a Messerschmitt, rendering it completely useless, and if it went through the cockpit as described make minced meat of the pilot inside.

Three hits from a 37mm in the close vicinity of the cockpit seems an unlikely case for a below 10% damage to the said aircraft.

Regards,
Andreas B