1939 Victories of JGr.152 ( I./ZG 52 )

[Marius]

Hello all,
could someone confirm these victories as true (documented) or false ?

08.09.39 n.n. Potez 63 Landau (Hptm.Lessmann ?)
09.09.39 Hptm.Lessmann Battle Saarbrücken
09.09.39 Olt. v.Bothmer Bloch Saarbrücken
09.09.39 Olt.Wiggers Battle Saarbrücken
16.09.39 Lt.Grasser Fesselballon
24.09.39 Obt.Schnoor Morane Saarbrücken
24.09.39 Lt.Rosenkranz Morane Saarbrücken
24.09.39 Lt.Rosenkranz Morane Saarbrücken
24.09.39 n.n. Morane Saarbrücken (Lt.Hagen ?)
24.09.39 n.n. Morane Saarbrücken (Ofw.Oertel ?)
24.09.39 Lt.Elstermann Curtiss Hornbach
24.09.39 Lt.Grasser Curtiss Hornbach
27.09.39 Ogefr.Scherm Battle Bitsch
28.09.39 Olt.Vitzthum Mureaux Götzenbruck
30.09.39 Olt.Liensberger Curtiss Merzig



Some of them should be pure fantasy. Any ideas ?

Many regards,
Marius

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

I presume that you have the information on P. 543 of Prien's JFV Vol 2, (purple) series) and the Ring/Boch victory lists and "estimated claims (also called "turks"), but in case you don't, here's what they say. Please note that in the case of the "estimated" claims listings, the few cases where we have been able to cross-checked these, they have so-far proven only about 50% reliable.

Your 08.09.39 is listed in Prien as an N.N. Hptm. Lessmann is listed as the pilot on Ring's "estimated" list for that date.

Your three 09.08.39 listings do not appear in Prien nor in either of Ring's confirmed or "Estimated Claims" lists.

Your 16.09.39 listing appears as a victory on both Prien and Ring lists.

Of your seven 24.09.39 listings, both Prien and Ring validate the Schnoor and Rosenkranz victories, and two other N.N. victories for a total of 5. The other two appear on Ring's "Estimated" list, one by Olblt. Graf Vitzthum for a Morane 406, and the other the same kind of plane by Fw. Oertel. Lt. Hagen isn't mentioned, nor are Lts. Elstermann or Grasser.

Your 27 and 28.09 listings are not covered by either source as either confirmed or estimated.

Your 30.09.39 listing for Liensberger is listed as confirmed by both Prien and Ring. Since we have Liensberger's FBs, I'm pretty sure that this one is solid.

So this is pretty much a mixed bag of information. I hope that this helps.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Marius]

Thank you Larry.
Is there any confirming document or other source giving 9 (10 with the balloon) victories for September 1939, as estimated (?) in Jagdfliegerverbände?
I am missing such a note about the "estimation of aerial victories and names" in the mentioned book.

For 9.9. the victories were surely not confirmed. And I suppose the names are not given correctly, just estimated (see C.Shores - Fledgling Eagles, p. 57-58). The pilots couldn`t report about Fairey Battle bombers.

The 24.9. is very interesting and I am asking you how Lt.Rosenkranz could report about 2 victories when he was shot down at the same time over enemy territory and taken to a French prison camp.

Is there any source giving the missions flown (with hours) for the 24.9. ?

Regards,

[Kapper]

Marius

Referring to my notes I have recorded that 2 of the 3 claims for the 9 Sep, Prein has these on the 20 Sep (Lessman & Bothmer). P61 of 'Fledgling Eagles' has a 3rd to Wiggers that is not in Priens list which are the same 3 fro the 9th Sep. Also on p57 of 'Fledgling Eagles' has a claim for Lessman that isn't in Priens list for 9th Sep. So possibly the dates for the 9th Sep and 20th Sep claims were mixed up possibly because of the Lessmann claims on both dates as noted in 'Fledgling Eagles'??

Regards,

Craig..

[Marius]

Hi Craig,
the three claims meant for the 9th were gone to 3./JG 53 (apparently 1 Bloch confirmed and 1 Bloch not confirmed) and 4./ZG 76 (1 Bloch confirmed).
The claims on 9th and 20th in above mentioned books seem to be pure fantasy, so no way for a mix.
The question is how the claims for JGr.152 were developed and when? Maybe all three claims were real (on 9th) but not confirmed in the end?

Regards,