Colours used on JG54 109F aircraft at start of Barbarossa

[RacerRich]

I recently bought the new Fine Moulds 109F-2, which includes decals (which I wont use) for the early Barbarossa "segmented" style 109F's.
It got me thinking again regarding the colours used on these aircraft.

This link shows the style of camouflage I am referring to

http://www.wbskins.hp-parrots.de/sit...09f4_2jg54.htm


My question is; are there actually ANY colour photo's showing the confirmed use of dark green divisions with '02 infill over 65/76 base on the fuselage?
I have seen plenty of black/white photo's, and still feel very unsure about using those colours by rote.

If anybody could link,send,sell me a photo of these aircraft in COLOUR I would be very grateful.

Regards to all,

Rich

[Rabe Anton]

Very probably someone will turn up exactly the type of photo you are looking for. In lieu of that information, however, you might take a look at the color photograph of Bf 109E of II./JG 54 which was published on the dust jacket of Smith, et al., Luftwaffe Painting Guide (Kookabura Technical Publications, ca. 1970). While it is true that this Emil antedated the Bf 109F-2 in II./
JG 54 service by several months, it is indisputable that the peculiar camouflage pattern found on the Emil was the progenitor for that found on the unit's F-2s. In my opinion, the colors as well as the pattern remained consistent throughout 1941 regardless of aircraft subtype. Thus, I feel that once you have seen the Emil scheme, you also will have seen the F-2 scheme. Perhaps also worth noting that the 1970 publication date makes electronic colorization rather less likely than in recent "color"
photographs.

RA

[RacerRich]

Hi Rabe, thank you for the reply.

I think I know the photo to which you refer, and although I broadly agree with your sentiment, I feel that particular photo is not good enough to determine the exact shades in question. The big difference between that photo and the F models similarly painted is that assuming the "E" IS 71/02, which I probably agree for the wing upper surfaces, the photo's of the F's in Russia I have access to seem to show darker colours, maybe still the 74/75, or maybe one of those colours and 71, thats the prob- it doesnt really conclusively follow. If I were going to the trouble of totally repainting a complete group of brand new aircraft, I would probably do them in a scheme suitable for ground concealment, so would use a scheme similar to the later JG54 green/brown. So now we have possible use of brown, but still not ONE colour photo...

Although I have a healthy interest in Luftwaffe aircraft and colours, it is not my discipline or absolute passion, so I dont have boxes of original unpublished photo's etc etc. But maybe someone reading this post does, lets hope so!

Regards

Rich

[Primoz]

I'd like to mention that some of these Bf 109 Fs had yellow wing leading edges.

[RacerRich]

Agreed- I had noticed that, but again, nobody can produce a colour photo.

One ref I do not have is the new Classic Publications book on the invasion of Russia- any good pics in there-in colour, do you know?

[Etienne]

I know this is not what you are looking for,but at least it is a colour image of a variation of the scheme and again on an Emil.
This page comes from JAGDWAFFE Vol 3 section 1 "Strike in the Balkans".
A colour profile of the scheme you are looking for on a Emil also appears in the book.
This sheme has been frustating me for the last 20 years!, so I know how you feel.

Cheers,
Etienne.

[Primoz]

The pics posted by Etienne are the only good color photos of this type of camouflage I've ever seen. Judging by many b/w photos it seems that the colors were not allways the same. The dark fuselage color looks very dark and seems to be RLM 70 while the lighter (or less dark) color seems to vary - it could be RLM 74, 75, 02 and/or 71.

[RacerRich]

Originally Posted by Primoz

The pics posted by Etienne are the only good color photos of this type of camouflage I've ever seen. Judging by many b/w photos it seems that the colors were not allways the same. The dark fuselage color looks very dark and seems to be RLM 70 while the lighter (or less dark) color seems to vary - it could be RLM 74, 75, 02 and/or 71.

Well I am wondering, and have done for some while, if the base colour is actually a light '02 derivative, then crossed with 70/71/ OR 80, and the infills are actually 79...
This would tie in well with lots of other goins on , and would make at least as much sense from a ground concealment point of view.
Alternatively, some JG54 FW190 colour photo's (not great quality but nevertheless) show an unidentified but very bright medium green being used.. could it be the infill colour?
I just cannot see the point of respraying brand new aircraft in the discussed pattern using 74/75, seems a total waste of time to me.
Who know, back to the colour image request..

[Don Pearson]

The examples you are citing are from different times in the war, if those are straightened out it may help you to your answer.

The greens you refer to on the Fw190s of JG 54 (as well as greens and browns of their earlier Bf109s) have been attributed to captured stocks of Soviet paints. The Bf109 Fs that you are interested in were painted before the invasion of Russia, so likely would exclude these particular colors.

The Bf109Es from the above attached photos were shown at a time when the E model displayed both the 1940-style schemes as well as the newly repainted 74/75 scheme. If the base camo of aircraft were being repainted in 74/75, why would it not seem logical for those colors to also be applied to the fuselage sides?

Don

[Franek Grabowski]

This discussion is on the best way to become ridiculous.
I am intrigued, how a one may identify colours based on so poor slides. Quick play in a photo editing software proves, that any colour combination may be achieved by various settings.
There are some points to be considered, however.
It is suggested by presence of traces of ID markings that the paint is at least of September 1940 vintage. If so, it should be a little bit faded after more than a half of year's service. This is further suggested by presence of stencils on flap and wing, which usually were not reapplied after overpaintings.
If teh paint was applied somewhere in June-August 1940, then factory scheme was 71/02/65. Paint on the fuselage seems lighter than the one on top but it must be noted that the coat was much thicker, therefore 70/71 remains a strong possibility.
Call it educated guess or whatever, but remember that army is generally dull, goes according to orders and dislikes individualism.