WNr. 19850 & 410098

[ouidjat]

Hi gents,

I have these two losses in the same unit, the same day with the same pilot!!!
Uffz. Helmut Johanning, 8./JG 1 on 01-Dec-1943.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Regards, Franck.

[G.R.Morrison]

Our db reveals many discrepancies like this: duplications, omissions, number-transpositions. The absence of so much of 1944’s records is a deficiency which is unlikely to be overcome. WNr.410098 appears in Sept. 1944 in JG 104’s accident reports, so the question could be, IF it was 410098 on 1.Dec. 1943, could it have been rebuilt from “75% damage” to serve as a Schule machine? WNr.19850 does not appear again in our records.

Bf 109G-6 WNr.410098 of 8./JG 1, coded “schwarze 7”
Uffz. Helmut Johanning, injured 1.Dec. 1943 in Notlandung nördlich Nimwegen following Luftkampf. WNr.19850 per loss! 75% damage.

Bf 109G-6 WNr.410098 of JG 104 (pilot not named) Landing accident 14.Sept. 1944, Fl.Pl. Fürth, 10% damage.

Sorry this does not resolve your dilemma, GRM

[Jim P.]

Maybe this will help:

Bf 109G-6, 19850, n.n., , III., , JG 1, , , , , 01-Dec-43, Luftkampf., , Lw.Bfh.Mitte/RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.24; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, X.2, p.200, , PlQu. 05 Ost S / ML-8/3, 75%, F, , ,

[vinnie]

I personally believe that Werknr. 19850 was the aircraft that was lost on 1 December 1943, not 410098. III./JG 1 had mostly Erla built aircraft delivered in May and June 1943, and some WNF built Me-109's (G-4 and G-6). Werknr. 19850 was one of those early WNF G-6's. Uffz. Helmut Johanning was the wingman of ace Ofw. Alfred Miksch. Miksch died on 1-12-1943, Johanning survived this crash but did not survive the war. He also flew black 4, black 7 normally was flown by Fw. Josef Kehrle (at least throughout the summer of 1943).
A rebuild of Werknr. 410098 after 75% damage would not seem very likely to me, but unfortunately we can't tell for sure what exactly happened.

[ouidjat]

Good morning Gents,

Thank you for your replies and comments.

Funny: The loss given by Jim (Prien) 75%? I have 100% for that one and FSA!
And I'm sure I got it HERE in these pages ..

I tend to think Vinnie is right ..
Is 19850 'Schwarze 4' ????
Was it a G-6/Trop (before reaching JG 11?)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/11967570533/

Regards, Franck.

[vinnie]

Thanks for sharing the amazing picture of Johanning and black 4! Since the pictured aircraft is a WNF G6/R6, it could very well be true that this black 4 is in fact Werknr. 19850 that crashlanded on 1 December 1943 as black 7.

[mdejong]

Hi Franck,

Johanning was injured in the same attack where "my pilot" Alfred Miksch was killed.

The incident / crash took place in Belgium and not in Nimwegen. Most likely the event started there.

Alfred Miksch went down in the Prins Albert Canal. I have a wartime document stating this. Johanning came down not far away, luckily to survive.

Google here on the forum with " Alfred Miksch" and you will find out more.

Martin

[ouidjat]

Thanks for reminding this thread Martin.

Regards, Franck.