Hole Der Geier 109e-1

[VonWaffen]

Hi
As I m a new member on this forum I would like to congratulate everyone for the amazing research work accomplished here ..
It s really helpful for people like me , who try to reacreat historical plane for my favorite game IL2...

Ok let talk about my topic subject Hole der geier...
In the begaining it was just a obscure plastic scale model made by a Russia company found on the net

, the plane was a old e-1 messerschmitt in rlm 70 71 65 camo sheme who seem coming from the Poland campagne....
As I never encounter this marking before I was believe it was a hipotetical marking made for the purpose of the marketing for this 109 scale model , then doing some reaserche about old historical 109e-1 I found a picture of this plane but nothing was said about it in G Van Damme book.
Anyone here know if the red eagle head "Hols Der Geier'" came from a old JG marking like JG 132 ,JG 20 or if it's just a personal marking , and what unit this plane came from???

[VonWaffen]

Here the pic I was talking about...

[Larry Hickey]

VonWaffen,

"Hol's der Geier" is believed to be the personal marking of Lt. Tismar of 2.(J)/LG2 circa Sept., 1939 and later. It probably was painted in red, as was his a/c number, "Red 2." The "color" artwork is not accurate as the gun channels were gray and not yellow, a common mistake on artwork depicting 109s from that period.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[VonWaffen]

Thank Larry
This will be really helpful , I will fix and identify that skin for a better accuracy...
I knew about some of them painted RLM 65 hellblau but I have see so many painted yellow...really hard to gest with black and with pic
All gun channel when painted were in light bleu grey ?
So red 10 here must be wrong to, it s must be like this yellow 7
Thank again , well appreciated

[ouidjat]

By the way, "Hol's der Geier" was a Bf 109 E-3, not an E-1 ... If you want to make it .. accurate!

[VonWaffen]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

By the way, "Hol's der Geier" was a Bf 109 E-3, not an E-1 ... If you want to make it .. accurate!

Really ???

Ok , The ref I have found on the net tell E-1 was start production in late 38 to be delivery to Jg in the early months of 39 , all ready a thousand b ,c,d,e-1 at the start of the blitzkrieg over poland....


"At the outbreak of WW2 the Luftwaffe had a strength of 1,056 Me109. Many of these were Messerschmitt Bf 109Ds, but this series was already being replaced in increasing numbers by the Bf109 E.

"Bf 109's in Luftwaffe First Line Units 1.9.39
850 Me109 E-1 and E-1/B, 235 D-1, unknown small number of B's
(200 used against Poland)..."

"A total of 1,183 E-1 were built, 110 of them were E-1/B"

"Total year ends with 109 E production standing at 1,540."

"The main sub-type of the Bf 109 E-series, the Bf 109 E-3, entered production late in 1939. More Bf 109 E-3 fighters were built than any other model of the Bf109 E-series, and by the beginning of 1940 the production rate had reached some 150 machines per month, a total of 1,276 E-3 were built, including 83 E-3a export versions.[11][12]

On the other side I didn t found any date of delivery for E-3 serie to Luftwaffe unit , any 2j/lg2 unite list of 109 identification plane model and identification number , pilot list for mid 39 or any wr number was found on my side. Only location for this unit..
I also know the Lehrgeschwader were in general a mixed-formation units tasked with the operational evaluation of new types of aircraft and/or with the development/evaluation of new operational tactics or practices...

So if this plane is belive to be Werner Tismar red 2 of 2j/Lg2 at Circa in September 1939 , this will meen Luftwaffe unit was able to fight again Poland in sep 39 with bf 109e-3 serie ???

Did you know were I can find a list of Lg2 unit plane and number for the beginning of the war ?? This could be really helpful ...thank you

[ouidjat]

Yes, really; drop your book in the bin !!!
What about the E-3s during the late part of spanish war??? for ex.

Here is your "Hole" ..
AH, 1st picture is not necessary Lottin, neither September ... 2nd picture: typical background for photos made in Lottin. 3rd pic/ for accuracy.
And it's an E-3.

Regards, Franck.

[Clint Mitchell]

The lighter looking upper cowling MG troughs were painted in a light grey (not RLM65) coloured heat resistant paint. As Larry says the usage of yellow for this purpose is a complete myth.

[Larry Hickey]

VonWaffen,

If you really want to be an expert on the Bf109 during the early war years, you need to get Volumes I to 4/II of the classic series of books on that a/c (in German) "Die Jagdfliegerverband der Duetschen Luftwaffe 1939- bis 1945" by Dr Jochen Prien, et.al. There have been a few relatively minor revisions since the early-war volumes of this project were published, but it will answer all of your questions for which there are answers. There is a lot of information there that is not (yet) on the internet.

There is no plane list for I.(J)/LG2 at the beginning of the war that I know of, however, there is one for @ 21 March 1940 for the whole Gruppe. This lists the a/c type & subtype, W.Nr., plane number and assigned pilot, all as of that date. This is almost a unique document and I know of nothing like it for the rest of the Luftwaffe day fighter units during 1939-40. Tismar is listed with "2," which is six months after the referenced photos, but is still fairly likely to be valid. No certainty however.

I'm aware of a photo that shows an unidentified pilot, possibly Tismar, with this a/c during the winter of 1939-40, probably during December, before the application of the 1940 camouflage scheme. (note: while I was posting this, "ouidjat" posted a copy of this photo; it says Lottin -Poland- Sept., 1939, but I don't think it snows in Poland in September). There are several photos of "Black 2" of 2.(J)/LG2 known from the spring of 1940, which could be the same a/c. This likely was being flown by Tismar at the time.

I think that the info from this list has been published somewhere on one of the discussion boards during the last year or so, but at the moment I don't remember where. My copy was provided on a confidential basis, and I am not free to post this or send it to you.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ouidjat]

Larry,

I wrote "1st picture is not necessary Lottin, neither September", indeed it's during the said winter.
But your comment about the link between Tismar and "2" is interesting! ... How "we" write History!!! And after that ... We fight on this board!!! Funny

Regards, Franck.

PS: "There is a lot of information there that is not (yet) on the internet." Even though, it seems it will never be enough. Depends on how to use it ... Those who did publish - even with errors - and those who will publish made and make the difference.