eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??

[ouidjat]

Hi guys,

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-notgelan...item1c3ff5bb4e

Regards, Franck.

[ouidjat]

Eh eh eh eh!

And if I'm right .... (Of course I am! )
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=3390

Regards, Franck.

[sidney]

Franck, this... find of yours in my opinion is nothing short of spectacular. It shows the belly-landed Bf109F-2* of Stab/JG27 coded "Double Chevron and bars" sporting the elusive Stab/JG27 or inded JG27 emblem. As far as I can tell, this is the first such photo. Never seen before!

I will try to decipher the scene. The first photo (given in your post No.2) shows the apparently recently belly-landed aircraft camouflaged by wooden planks so it cannot be seen from the air. The soldier standing next to it appears to be Russian. If so, the scene might have been captured on the first day of Operation Barbarossa (i.e., 22 June 1941), and the Stab/JG27 aircraft belonged to the then Kommodore, Major Wolfgang Schellmann, who was captured, interrogated and later executed by the NKVD.

The second photo (post No.1) shows the scene when the fast advancing German Army had already reached the aircraft and secured the scene by posting a guard. The photo appears slightly overexposed so what appears to be snow is really something else.

Any corrections or contributions to the above is welcome.

Regards,
Sinisa

[F19Gladiator]

Sinisa, the 2nd photo in post #1 show naked trees without leaves and snow remaining in patches on the ground while in post #2 the trees have a foliage and no snow visible. The Bf109F clearly has a yellow tail band and I am almost sure the wooden buildings are Russian. This doesn't make 22 June 1941 likely but rather early spring in 1942 somewhere in the USSR.

[sidney]

Göran, the first snow, if indeed that is the snow what we are seeing here, in Russia of 1941 fell in early October, but it did thaw away shortly afterwards. Therefore the photo in post No.1 might have been taken around that time.

As for your suggestion that the photo was more likely taken in the spring of 1942, that I doubt, because by that time Stab/JG27 was already deployed to North Africa along with all of its Gruppen. Or you are suggesting perhaps that this was not the Stab/JG27 aircraft? Or that the aircraft recovery was delayed until the spring of 1942?

What would be your interpretation of these two photos?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Sidney - according to my los record the aircraft flown by Schellmann June 22nd 1941 was a Bf 109E-7, WNr 4189.

And according to my loss records ALL Bf 109s from JG 27 lost on June 22nd was Bf 109E - while the aircraft depicted clearly is a Bf 109F.

So I believe we will have to find another candidate for this one.



Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Strength returns for Stab JG 27 reveals the following:

21.06.2914 4/4 Bf 109E
28.06.1941 3/1 Bf 109E
05.07.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
12.07.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
19.07.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
26.07.1941 4/2 Bf 109E
02.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
09.08.1941 4/3 Bf 109E
16.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
23.08.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
30.08.1941 0/0 Bf 109E
06.09.1941 2/2 Bf 109E
13.09.1941 4/4 Bf 109E
20.09.1941 3/3 Bf 109E
27.09.1941 3/2 Bf 109E
04.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
11.10.1941 4/3 Bf 109
18.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz
25.10.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung in Döberitz
01.11.1941 4/0 Bf 109F-4/trop comment: Umrüstung auf F4 trop in Döberitz

During the period up until 11.10.1941 they were defined as subordinated to OST, no subordination for 18.10.1941 and 25.10.1941 - and the X (indicating X Fliegerkorps) from 01.11.1941.

So - I start to doubt that this is a Stab/JG 27 bird at all.

But there is of course the possibility that the Kommodore (which would have been Major Bernhard Woldenga) snatched himself a Bf 109F out of order... or even brought his 'personal' Bf 109F into the unit when he had to take over for Schellmann - anyone know from the top of their head which unit Woldenga was in before he returned to Stab/JG 27 - so I do not have to locate it in my papers?

You have this loss:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=160348

which could indicate that this happened.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again.

Seems Woldenga came from the position as Kommodore of JG 77, but the Stab/JG 77 also flew Bf 109E apparently...

But he still could have used his connections I guess... or we are looking at a bird from the 50 - series (JG 51, JG 52 etc) - with a personal emblem resembling the one of Stab/JG 27

Thoughts, Göran??

Regards,
Andreas B

[sidney]

Andreas,

I do not have my books at hand. Information taken from here http://ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg27.htm is what led me to believe that Stab/JG27 was equipped with the Bf109F aircraft shortly before Operation Barbarossa.
...
5.41-14.6.41; Werneuchen; Bf 109E/F
14.6.41-25.6.41; Sobolewo; Bf 109F
25.6.41 - 4.7.41; Wilna; Bf 109F
...

Now, if you are convinced that the above information is not accurate, than indeed we have to look for another candidate.

Regards,
Sinisa

[F19Gladiator]

Sidney, I am sure it is snow we see and not recently fallen "new snow" but what remains from a layer reduced by thaw. It is correct that the first snow came in October 1941 in Russia. It can be that the photo in post #2 was the first taken while the trees still had leaves and the one in post #1 taken later, after the snow came.....and melted away. I can't say for sure which unit the Bf109F belonged to but JG27 is of course a hot candidate. By the way, wasn't it so that Wolfgang Schellmann baled out of his stricken Bf109E-7 (W.Nr. 4189) <<+ after being rammed by a Russian I-153 biplane by Lt. Kuzmin of 127IAP/11SAD? So that rather nicely belly landed Bf109F is not Schellmann's Bf109E-7 which would also have not been in such good condition after hitting the ground pilotless. See Black Cross Red Star Vol.1 by Bergström & Mikhailov.
Br
Göran