2.(H)/14 loss confusion 10.01.1942

[Adam]

Can someone provide details of a loss incurred by the above unit on 10 January 1942. I have according to two separate loss reports:

Bf 110E (either an E-2 or an E-3) W.Nr 2423 - Jägerbeschuß.
According to the loss reports I've seen the machine had two pilots: either Oblt Helmut Hantel or a Lt ? Handl - both Verl.

I have a further note that lists Uffz Dubrow as the Bs of the crew and that the Vkz was 5F+SK, but I can't verify these. Any help sorting out the crew list and what happened would be much appreciated.

[Andrew Arthy]

Hey mate,

NA HW 5 gives the variant as "E3". Here's the quote, with wording as found in that source: "The Me 110 E3, also of 2 (H) 14, crashed on the same aerodrome as a result of enemy attack on operations and was 80% damaged." The aerodrome referred to is Arae Philaenorum. The signal also refers to the other 2.(H)/14 loss on 10 January 1942, Bf 110 E-2 WNr. 4454.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[Adam]

Thanks mate

It is that signal that created the issue for me in the first place!

[Merlin]

Adam,

according to the GQM report the pilot was Lt. Helmut Hantel, the second crew member was not hurt and therefore not reported.

[Adam]

Thanks Merlin
but I have the following reports from Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.:
12.01.1942, Lfd.Nr 13
28.01.1942, Lfd.Nr 15

The former has an E-2 with Handl as the pilot
The latter an E-3 with Hantel as the pilot

I am inclined to think Handl was the pilot and Hantel somehow managed to save the flight and was only recognised latterly. This does not finalise the sub-type.

[Stig Jarlevik]

This is rather odd

Shores et all states that the crew of the lost aircraft (no WNr) on this date was Lt Walter Scheller and Uffz Johannes Engelke, both KIA

How many losses did 2.(H)/14 have this day?

B Rgds
Stig

[Adam]

Hi Stig,

Just two losses for the unit that I am aware of. There is the above discrepancy and then Bf110E-2 W.Nr 4454 which suffered 70% damage but no crew injuries when crash landed during bad weather.

I find Shores et al very confusing in places and sometimes contradictory and what he has for the day just adds more mystery to what happened. What I have is that the crew comprised of: Lt Helmut Handl (F), Oblt Kurt Genal (B), Uffz ? Dubrow (Bs) and the aircraft was Bf 110E-? 5F+SK, W.Nr 2423. They were attacked by an unknown fighter and Handl was wounded, but due to the lack of armour plating for the pilot, Genal was able to crawl forward and assist Handl in maintaining flight. This was a contributing factor to his posthumous DKiG award apparently. It would also explain why he is listed as a pilot in the same incident but in a different loss return (further suggesting the actual pilot - Handl - was written up first and then when the truth came to light why Genal was added at a later date in a different loss return).

As far as the Scheller loss, this was in Bf110 W.Nr 2413 and occurred on 22 January - not the 10th as stated by Shores et al. Along with Scheller and Engelke, Oblt Heinrich Freudenberger (B) was also killed.

So all that is left to confirm is what subtype was WNr 2423...?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Adam

For what it's worth Mankau/Petrick states that WNr 2413 and 2423 were E-3.

Yes, Shores et al do produce some strange things in their two books so far, and I think it is a pity they did not enlist a general expert on German losses in their ranks. Not least since some of them are to be found here on TOCH!

Cheers
Stig

[Adam]

Thanks Stig!

I don't know the Mankau/Petrick research to which you refer but will take your word for it. As for the Shores et al research, I'm with you!

best regards

Adam