claims Il-2 and Il-2 m.h

[focusfocus]

Hello all

In the lists of victories,one regularly finds Il-2 and Il-2 m.h=mit Heckschutze/with rear gunner.
Is there a particular reason by RLM for making the difference between the claim of an Il-2 and Il-2 m.h?....promotions?points for obtainations decorations?others reasons?.....

Thank's in advance
Michel

[Evgeny Velichko]

Also, Il-2 with reargunner were usually claimed as Il-4, Il-7 and even Il-9.
As for ZG1, they used Il-4 for reargunned Il-2 very often.

[oquaig]

The original IL-2 was a single seat aircraft. The M.H. designation is for the later 2 seat (rear gunner) model. The two seat model came out in the fall of 1942 and both served together throughout 1943.

[Johannes]

Guys

Always thought that Il-4's were DB-3's, but I am no expert. Il-2's I agree also listed as Il-7's and also Il-5's later in the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

But claiming was slightly different between units, some units seemed to round-up/down times to nearest five minutes, JG 52 seemed to round of LaGG-3/Lavochkin-5 to just LaGG, and most Sowiet aircraft were known by many different codes i.e Il-2 is also known as Vultee, ZKP-57, V-11 and R-3, are are recorded on the mikrofilms in all these guises!.

[oquaig]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Guys

Always thought that Il-4's were DB-3's, but I am no expert. Il-2's I agree also listed as Il-7's and also Il-5's later in the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

But claiming was slightly different between units, some units seemed to round-up/down times to nearest five minutes, JG 52 seemed to round of LaGG-3/Lavochkin-5 to just LaGG, and most Sowiet aircraft were known by many different codes i.e Il-2 is also known as Vultee, ZKP-57, V-11 and R-3, are are recorded on the mikrofilms in all these guises!.

Hi Johannes,

A quick question: what period of the war are you looking at claims for ?
Luftwaffe claims for the beginning of the war were very confused as the Luftwaffe pilots were encountering aircraft the they no recognition books for. As the war progressed their recognition books improved and claims were more accurately recorded. I can help if I have more information about what you are looking for. I might suggest we restart your question on the Allied and Soviet Air Forces page so as not to go off topic here.

OR: You can get a copy of W. R. Taylor's book: "Combat Aircraft of the World" (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...orld&kn=&isbn=)
And the best book I have ever found on the Soviet Air Force development and aircraft types: Lennart Andersson's "Soviet Aircraft and Aviation" (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...&afn_sr=impact)

Regards
oquaig

[oquaig]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Guys

Always thought that Il-4's were DB-3's, but I am no expert. Il-2's I agree also listed as Il-7's and also Il-5's later in the war.

DB-3s were the first version of the twin engine bomber. It was redesigned to increase flight characteristics and range and designated DB-3F. Later in the war aircraft were named after their designer hence the DB-3F became the IL-4. How a Luftwaffe pilot could confuse a twin engine aircraft for a single engine IL-2 sounds very odd to me.

[oquaig]

Originally Posted by Johannes

... most Sowiet aircraft were known by many different codes i.e Il-2 is also known as Vultee, ZKP-57, V-11 and R-3, are are recorded on the mikrofilms in all these guises!.

The Vultee V-11 had nothing to do with the IL-2. 36 were built in the Soviet Union (Andersson pg.260) but failed to be accepted for military use (the R-Zet - a biplane - was chosen instead, the letter "Z" in Russian is is written thus:"3" hence the R-3, still not an IL-2). All 36 V-11s were turned over to Aeroflot in 1939 and used as postal couriers. The R-10 (KhAI-5) had a very similar appearance to the V-11. 490 were built but only 10 were in the west in 1941 in the 46th ORAE as part of the Pinsk Flotilla. Many R-10s had been lost at Khalkin Gol and even in more Finland in 1939-40. The remaining aircraft were in the interior or Far Eastern Military Districts and eventually all were handed over to Aeroflot in 1943 and used as passenger planes, their gun turrets removed. The Su-2 was designed to replace the R-10. I know there were many claims for R-10s, but most of the claims were Su-2s which have a similar appearance. I have matched a lot of R-10 claims to Su-2 units operating in the areas where no R-10s operated. Again I fail to see how these claims correlate to IL-2 losses...IL-2s do not resemble R-10s or Su-2s and up to the fall of 1942 all the IL-2s are single seat aircraft with no rear gunner or turret. last, the design designation for the IL-2 is TsKP-57...the Ts in Russian is pronounced the same as the letter Z in German hence ZKP-57...so, especially at the beginning of the war the Luftwaffe pilots knew a little about the IL-2 before the war, probably from their Military attaches. There never was an IL-5 or IL-7, this is just miss identification. I think the pilots who made these claims knew what they shot down even if they didn't know the proper name for it. What I see are researchers misinterpreting the claims because they are under informed ...See the attachments:

[Johannes]

Hi Oquaig

Many thanks for the information/enlightenment. I think I saw only a few mentions of the Vultee on the mikrofilms, and few more for R-3.
I'll try to track down the dates. One member of TOCH keeps details of who claimed the most of each aircraft type, so will be of use to him. I think once I listed all the Pe-8 heavy bomber claims, only about ten in number.

Regards

Johannes

[Evgeny Velichko]

Johannes.

Problem is, that as You noted, Il-4 was a modified and renamed two-engined bomber DB-3F.

But, some Luftwaffe units used "Il-4" for Il-4, and some units used "Il-4" (-5, -7, -9) for Il-2 with gunner.

[Johannes]

Hi Evgeny

Don't think I came across a mentioning of Il-9 in the mikrofilms, and myself tried to use just one definition for each aircraft type i.e Il-2.

But I guess the unit preferences/variations has defeated me. I remember "curtiss" seemed to have many meanings.

Kind Regards

Johannes