16-17/6/44 night fighters over England

[DavidIsby]

Were German night fighters/intruders active over England on the night of 16-17 June 1944?

The compliation of air-air victories from BA-MA microfilms includes the following information on 17/6:

Kdo. IX. Fliegerkorps/Lft.3
1. Uffz. Ottern 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 2225/05 Ost, 4,500 m [England] at 0200 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 15
1. Fw Trenke 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 121/05 Ost, no height [England] at 0215 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 16

Questions:
1. Can these claims be related to any specific Bomber Command or other loss over England at that time/place?
2. Can anyone provide a reference to a source that would provide the location of the grid references aove?

Thanks
David Isby

[Griffon]

Hello David!

I do not know if this is of any help for you, but I do own a so called "Luft Naviations-Karte in Merkatorprojektion" and checked the grids you provided on this map;

grids 12 and 22 (I would start with these as a reference for the coordinates you have given) lie on a straight line between Vlissingen and Southend, grid 12 contains Canterbury and Folkestone in its South-Western corner and runs up to Harwich while grid 22 lies to the North West of the Straits of Calais and has Dunkerque and Ostende on its Southern edge.

I do hope that this is a starting point for you, unfortunately I cannot tell you how the grids on this navigation chart are subdivided so I cannot provide more details;

cheers from Vienna
phil

[SES]

Originally Posted by DavidIsby

Were German night fighters/intruders active over England on the night of 16-17 June 1944?

The compliation of air-air victories from BA-MA microfilms includes the following information on 17/6:

Kdo. IX. Fliegerkorps/Lft.3
1. Uffz. Ottern 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 2225/05 Ost, 4,500 m [England] at 0200 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 15
1. Fw Trenke 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 121/05 Ost, no height [England] at 0215 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 16

Questions:
2. Can anyone provide a reference to a source that would provide the location of the grid references aove?

Thanks
David Isby

Hi David.
The positions are given in the old Lw grid system. The link below has a converter (LUMA, use pre MAY 1943), which will convert the positions to lat./long.
http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm and this is a part of the story:
http://www.gyges.dk/Wilde%20Sau%20Frankrig.htm I have a copy of the German document.
bregds
SES

[FrankieS]

Hi David !

You can use LUMA for finding your map coordinates.
See: http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm

2225/05 Ost
is the center point of this map (with about 5 km radius)
http://mc.multimap.com/cs/bworld//M1...00W700H400.gif

121/05 Ost
is the center point of this map (with about 15 km radius)
http://mc.multimap.com/cs/bgb//X25/Y...00W700H400.gif

bye,
FrankieS

[Chris Goss]

...and no Bomber Command losses match easily

[Brian]

Hi David

I believe they may have been US B-24s returning late from a raid - I will endeavour to find out more unless one of our American friends can provide the answer.

Cheers
Brian

[Griffon]

I too believe that these losses could be US bombers, returning late from a raid;
AFAIK, the 410s were not equipped with a radar set, so a full night intruder sortie would have been very difficult to fly for them, a intruder sortie during the last daylight hours seems more probable to me too.

btw, isnt there a book about a particular costly raid where ME-410s decimated a US formation returning from a raid against Hamm IIRC?

cheers
phil

[mhuxt]

The book you're thinking of is "Night of the Intruders" by Ian McLachlan. I've not read it.