Luftwaffe Fighter Claims - 27 July 1940

[Peter Cook]

I am trying to establish the validity of two claims for 27 July 1940. The first is by Hptm Erich Gerlitz of 7/JG27 for a Hurricane shot down at 16.35 at an unknown location. This is listed in Tony Wood's OKL Combat Claims Lists and in Brian Cull's Battle for the Channel.
The second claim is for Oblt Roloff von Aspern of 5/JG54 for a Hurricane shot down 'W London' at 10.20, reproduced in Mathews and Foreman's Luftwaffe Aces, Biographies and Victory Claims.
I can't match either of these with any known actions on this day or any Hurricane losses. The only Hurricane that was lost was flown by F/L Cox of 501 Sq., who was shot down over Dover by Lt Marx of 3/Erpr.Gr.210 at approximately 17.50.

Any thoughts?

[Nick Beale]

If it helps, this is an extract from the daily sitrep at the TSAMO German Docs in Russia site.

[Chris Goss]

Nothing in Jochen Prien's book for Gerlitz or von Aspern. Latter's first victory of the BofB I have as being 30 Aug 40 (7), his claim previous to that was with 1./JG 76 and on 4 Jun 40 (6).

[Stig Jarlevik]

This day was up for a partial review not so long ago.

Then it was the claim listed in BoB the Combat Archive Vol 2 under III./JG 52 Fw Fernsebner - Hurricane - Dover (17.50 - 18.00H)
The out come of that discussion was that no such claim had ever been made!

However that leaves the Vol 2 short of one Luftwaffe claim. As can be seen from Nick's attachment, there were three claims by Luftwaffe that day, two Spitfires and one Hurricane.

It seems the two claims we know of, were one by Oblt G Framm (2./JG 27) which may be the one referred to by Tony Woods, while the second one was by Lt H Marx (3./ErpGr 210)

So who claimed the second Spitfire (the third claim as per the daily report)?

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

So who claimed the second Spitfire (the third claim as per the daily report)?

Cheers
Stig

From an earlier page of the same sitrep: one Spitfire was claimed off Portsmouth in an action between 25 Spitfires and 18 Bf 109.

My first attachment said that the second was claimed off Falmouth but a quick perusal of the rest of the sitrep doesn't say who was operating over Cornwall (apart from night attacks on St. Merryn and Land's End) and no claim is mentioned. Was Falmouth, a 400 km round trip from airfields in Brittany, within the Bf 109's practical radius of action? If not, we'd be looking at a claim by a Bf 110 or a bomber or reconnaissance gunner.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

If it helps, this is an extract from the daily sitrep at the TSAMO German Docs in Russia site.

Nick,
Is that extract that you posted for Luftflotte 2?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

Nick,
Is that extract that you posted for Luftflotte 2?

The first one I posted was the day's totals for the western theatre, »Gesamtverlust (Flugzeuge) a) EIGENE … b) FEINDL.«

The second one came under the heading »GROSSBRITANNIEN (Lfl. 2, 3 und 5)«.

They weren't broken down beyond that.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

The first one I posted was the day's totals for the western theatre, »Gesamtverlust (Flugzeuge) a) EIGENE … b) FEINDL.«

The second one came under the heading »GROSSBRITANNIEN (Lfl. 2, 3 und 5)«.

They weren't broken down beyond that.

It's just that they looked identical to the entries in the Luftflotte 3 KTB.

Might it be the case that that archive actually hold the information for Luftflotte 2 for the Battle of Britain?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

It's just that they looked identical to the entries in the Luftflotte 3 KTB.

Might it be the case that that archive actually hold the information for Luftflotte 2 for the Battle of Britain?

I would suspect not since the sitreps they do hold have a ticket on the front of each one stamped with “Wien” and a date, which would explain how the USSR got them — probably captured in Vienna in April 1945. The circulation list at the end of each (210 recipients — their stated total, I’m not so sad as to count them all) includes Luftlottenkommandos 1, 2, 3 4 & 5, so I’d guess that these reports were an overview of operations for general consumption by Luftwaffe HQ’s and RLM departments. Do the Lfl. 3 reports have as wide a circulation? There’s no reason to suppose that Lfl. 2 would have differed greatly from other Luftflotten in the external bodies it sent copies to.

Just a though, how far would it be possible to reconstruct the Lfl. 2 sitreps by “subtracting” known Lfl. 3 and 5 operations from these daily reports and seeing what remained? (At this stage you could safely ignore the “Lage Süd” appendix detailing Italy’s successive triumphs in the Med, North Africa and the Balkans).

[Peter Cook]

Thanks everyone. Not sure that I can answer the issue of the third claim on the daily report. There was only one Spitfire brought down, and that was by Oblt Framm, while Lt Marx brought down the Hurricane. I guess that the identity of the 2nd Spitfire claimant, and the claim details, remain a mystery.