Panzer Aces

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I am mostly interested in the Luftwaffe and its aces, aircraft and units but naturally enough like to read about all sorts of other military history. A topic that is rather different although somewhat linked is the armored fighting vehicle units of the German military in World War II of which I only know the rudimentary details. I am nevertheless interested in this subject but yet have read only very superficially about it so it was with interest that I watched the following video that the YouTube algorithm suggested which was gratifying as nowadays there is a mass of artificial intelligence produced garbage appearing on that site (the Axis laughed at x Allied weapon - until discovering how deadly it was) and for some reason is promoted. I watched the first half dealing with German tank claims and the difficulty of arriving at a figure for these which was interesting but not new to me as I have read about this previously. However, the second half of the video was quite surprising - according to this content creator, the commonly repeated totals of destroyed vehicles of various tank aces such as Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittman, Oberleutnant Otto Carius and Feldwebel Kurt Knispel and some of their "stories" are nothing more than complete fabrications invented postwar by Franz Kurowski. I have seen this author's work cited here and there but have never read any of his books and feel that if the information in this video is true, and I believe it is, then it is a pity that this person invented such nonsense and that it is still taken seriously by so many who should know better.

Horrido!

Leo

[edwest2]

Hello Leo,


The distorted reality of the internet, including youtube, means anyone can post anything. What should be realized is that the variations of quality are vast. There are dabblers, amateurs, semi-professionals and professionals in any field or area of interest you can name.

All that's required is a camera and microphone, and rudimentary editing skills.

Most of these youtube videos use film snippets that are usually unattributed. Anyone with a good speaking voice can do a voice-over.

If one really wants facts then go to the better books. Those that list sources and references. I avoid dramatic video that gives me nothing else to go on. And debunking a wide range of subject matter is common online. Unfortunately, such "debunking" can shut down otherwise productive discussions.


Best,
Ed

[BruceMk11]

Kurowski was/is a well known apologist, 'loose with the truth'.

You might find something of interest in this WW2 TV playlist on 'Panzers-German Armour in WWII'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6vg...z4kubWrhZ02Yus

Cheers,
Bruce

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

. I have seen this author's work cited here and there but have never read any of his books

Franz Kurowski wrote the biography of Marseille and titles such as 'Luftwaffe Aces' and 'Panzer Aces' published by Schiffer/Stackpole/Fedorowicz etc etc, all of which feature a large amount of 'invented' dialogue IIRC. So hardly an 'historian'. But I don't think he's committed any worse literary 'crimes' than, say, Toliver/Constable, aside perhaps from writing some 500 titles like these! Hagiographic 'faction', whatever you want to call it, possibly to serve an agenda. Has anyone ever written about Wittmann or Peiper for example, without being accused of being a 'far-right' apologist? I was reading Hans Schaufler's 'Panzer an der Weichsel' and his Pz. Rgt. 35 compendium a while back and thought that some of the personal accounts were a little familiar; I found them uncredited by Kurowski in the Panzer Aces titles - so not all the dialogue is his invention. His work has been published in the "Landser" booklets - Altmann is one of his psuedos. Kurowski also wrote under the pen name of Volkmar Kühn. His combat history of the Tiger (.. Geschichte einer legendären Waffe 42-45..) was reprinted in hardback by Flechsig a number of years ago. The photo selection was completely re-worked and a friend of mine, Bernd Burmeister, contributed a large portion of his archive. Bernd's uncle had been a Tiger commander in s.Pz Abt. 503, Knispel's unit. Not proof of anything I know, but ...

As Mark Rikmenspoel explained back in 2002 on the Feldgrau forum;

"..JJF told me Kurowski was a signaller in WW2, and that he saw little or no frontline action. His essential quality was that he decided very early on to write about the war, so from the mid-1950's (at the latest) he began to collect material and to interview important veterans. So of course his Aces books are fictionalized, and even his "straight" history works contain errors which have been corrected by subsequent research (since he might use information he collected in 1965 in a book written in 1995, for example), but I think all of us who have read his works understand that you can't rely on him for literal accuracy.

So what is the point to reading Kurowski (aka Volkmar Kühn and several other pen names)? He gives the reader a feel for conditions, for what German soldiers experienced in the various theaters of war. So no, Hermann Bix did not actually have every thought or statement attributed to him, but he did share his experiences and impressions with Kurowski, as did veterans of the sSS-PA 101/501 who knew Michael Wittman (who was of course unavailable for comment). The value in reading Kurowski is to better understand what life is like inside a tank, or trying to live in the swamps of the Volkhov. In this sense, I have taken a lot from his books, even as I know they can't be considered as reliable sources of secondary information..."

[edwest2]

I will add that book reviews, which once followed a consistent formatting practice, have turned into so much useless drivel in too many cases. In the past, Amazon allowed rebuttal posts to books but ended that for reasons unknown. Now, a "review" can be the same as an online post. "It was boring." "Stopped reading at page 56." and so on.

Expert commentary is much more rare than I would like. This needs to change in some meaningful way. Posts on any specialist site, including here, tend to get lost. It is not uncommon to see questions asked here that were answered years ago. All the poster failed to do is to use the search function.

Whether one refers to books or youtube videos, standards should always exist. This as opposed to an unknown person cobbling together anything ranging from total fiction to some facts. A real TV documentary includes mention of all involved in the credits at the end. Real people with real names that could be contacted by those inclined to do so.

I propose a massive, highly cross-referenced database. Wikipedia is owned by persons unknown. Anyone unaware of this needs to know that while it can be a starting point, I never use it for anything else in my research.

So, something structured, something easily searchable and something vetted by experts. The alternative is random posts by unknown individuals that usually fall into the mostly uninformed category followed by the illogical and poor reasoning category.

[kaki3152]

Just my 2 cents. I have a lot of Kurowski books, many of them picked up cheap. His collection on the Eastern theater of WWII are very interesting because they provide details on actions which were difficult for the English reading folks, who mostly could not read in German, to find elsewhere. I'm sure there are fictionalized parts but it is not the same as a Sven Hassel novel (I have all of them). They are fun to read and provide a perspective on German war attitudes. They way I see it, if you can pick Kurowsi's books for cheap, they are worth it.