26th July, 1943 - Koolhoven FK 58?

[Amrit1]

This question was posted on another forum and we haven't been able to answer it. I wondered whether TOCH members would be able to help.

Ihave recently read about a Circus flown by 2 Group Bostons against Coutrai/Wevelghem airfield. It seems to be a fairly regular operation except one point for me (26th July 1943);

When withdrawing from the target area the formation came under attack from Fw 190s. The formation made no turn and was heading for disaster until the escort fighters managed to turn the bombers. The interesting part is that one of the withdrawal cover squadrons, Polish 316 Sqdn., entered the fray they found they were overshooting their targets ... it was thought that these aircraft were Koolhoven FK 58s of Dutch origin... And the camouflage was 'like that of Italian aircraft operated under German control' - their noses and tails were yellow.

Were these really FK 58s? If so, were they used as trainers by the Luftwaffe ... ? And what was their colour scheme?

As far as I have been able to find out no FK 58s were used by the Germans. Does anybody have any references to this date and any possible German/ other units that operated in this area.

I know that some of the FK 58s operated by the French in 1940 were piloted by Poles, and hence they may have mistaken a similar looking aircraft. Anybody know of German aircraft that may have looked similar.

Cheers
A

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Amrit

That they should have encountered any FK 58 is very unlikely. Personally I find the chances equal to nil...

Guessing only (nothing to support this hypothesis), Luftwaffe DID operate one type which was a "look-a-like" aeroplane, and that was the Bloch 152, 155 models, used in some quantity as an advanced trainer. At the date in question, some just might have had Vichy coloured noses, which I guess could look yellow in the sunlight.

Cheers
Stig

[CJE]

No way!
The Vichy air force was disbanded in Dec. 42.
It looks like another example of erroneous ID. How many Me 109s were shot down in the Pacific and He 113s over England?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo Christian

Why "no way"? I know of course Vichy was disbanded in Dec 1942. My theory is in fact BASED upon that fact!
At that time Luftwaffe took over 173 Bloch fighters, 83 in condition I and 90 in condition III. A further 84 were considered (if I understand the book by Serge Joanne correctly). Why do you consider it so impossible that at least ONE of these Bloch fighters had not been repainted some 6 months later that it still could carry the Vichy colours on nose and tail? The general Bloch camouflage could ALSO very well be taken for an "Italian" camouflage since I believe any opposing fighter pilot seing something different from Luftwaffe's splinter type camouflage, probably would think "Italian". The Bloch fighters were to a large degree distributed to various Luftwaffe units IN France.

Mind you I am not talking Gospel here, but I think before you shoot down the theory you should do it a bit better, than simply say NO WAY and give a reason which rather emphasize my surmising than refuting it.

I am very much aware that both Allied and Axis pilots had grave "spotting" problems in the air, but every report was not necessarily "benzodrine fixed"

Again I don't mind the theory gets crossfired, but I think it deserves a little more credit than that!

Cheers
Stig

[CJE]

Stig,
Sorry for having infuriated you. I did not mean it.

There are photographs of Bloch 155s (152s were quickly discarded, while the Germans proceeded with the assembly of at least 20 further 155s at Châteauroux) at the paint shop and these were taken very soon after the Unoccupied zone was overrun.
I really doubt that the Germans would have allowed these aircraft to fly with Vich markings.
Moreover, I have the list of all crashes and none happened outside France (talking from memory, maybe one in Germany). So I doubt they were flown in Holland.

But all my archives are in my office and I'll try and come back tomorrow to be more specific if you have any interest in that.

Chris

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Chris

First of all I seldom gets infuriated, and especially not now.
I know some guys on these pages would be the first to start WW 3 but I don't! I prefer to enjoy my day after a hard days work. I love to look at these pages and even sometimes contribute a word or two. Since I am no researcher I have little to contribute with as such, so there is no point in getting upset if someone else has a better idea than me.

I get your points Chris, but the way I read the initial text it seems to me like the bombers failed to turn correctly and just maybe were heading south or south east instead of back to England. Before the escort could turn the bombers back on course for home, they might even had strayed over northern France. With this in mind, Metz was a big transit point for Blochs and large numbers were noted during April and May 1943, not too far away from where we are looking...

Again I don't say I am right! You certainly could be correct Chris. All I am doing is to make a guess to make sense out of the basic report, that's all. As you say we have two options. Either the spotting at the time was faulty, or correct! If faulty, no big deal really? But if correct my guess at least fits the general discription of the Koolhoven, which was basically the point I tried to make.

I am not requiring from you to have a detailed log of every Bloch fighter in Luftwaffe service with every flight stated where and when... , but on the other if you do...

Cheers Old Boy
Stig

[Seaplanes]

To support Stigs info, I can confirm that out of a total of 173 Bloch 152 found, a total of 84 aircraft were considered for possible future use by Luftwaffe. These figures was found in a document with the following title: Aufstellung über die bei Besetzung Südfrankreichs angefallene französischen Flugzeuge. I also seem to remember that all aircraft of foreign construction in Luftwaffe service should be given a bright yellow engine cowling, wing undersides and tail unit for recognition purposes.

[CJE]

Stig,

On 26 July 43 no Bloch 152 was lost. At that time, they were mainly used by Ld.Kdo 1/III, 1./XI and Ld.Kdo. 2/VII in Germany.

At that time too, the Bloch 155 was in service with JLü.St. at Orléans-Bricy. No less than 24 were lost but none to the enemy.

Incidentally, the highest serial number recorded is 744, while the production stopped at 729 on 25 June 1940, which means that the Germans assembled at least 15 more Bloch 155s at the Châteauroux-Déols plant from Decembre 1942 on.

Chris