PR photo that almost stopped operation Market-Garden

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello,
I would like to know if one of you could help me to discover the identity of the pilot ( name and Squadron ) of the RAF that took the 5 pictures of German Panzers of 9 SS Pz.Division at Arnhem on the 15th September 1944. Those 5 pictures were analized by the S.I.O. ( Senior Intelligence Officer ), Major Urquhart, who asked General Eisenhower to stop Operation-Market Garden.
I took this information from the classic book writen by Cornelius Ryan. I read it twice, but never figured out why he did not put the name of the pilot who took those famous pictures or mentioned the Squadron.
Does anyone know IF those pictures exists today? Were they ever published? Where?
Glad in advance for any information about this particular fact.
Cheers for all
Adriano

[Dennis Peschier]

Adriano,

The book ”a bridge to far” is an excellent book, but remember that it was written over thirty years ago. At present “Arnhem 1944”by Martin Middlebrook is the standard. And if you want to focus on the German side “It never snows in September” By Robert Kershaw. These authors had a lot more sources at their disposal.
Middlebrook has no additional info on Major Urquhard and his photo’s. However I seem to remember reading somewhere else that it is doubted now that these photographs ever existed.
I’ve been going through some books to find the facts, but could not. I have about a meter and a half of books so I gave up eventually.
Perhaps some of the other members know??

“a bridge to far” is my worst looking book! It was my first one about Market Garden and it has been read many times.

Hope this is of some help

Dennis

[Chris Going]

Adriano -this is a fascinating topic. Urquhart is still very much (June 2007) with us, living in New York, and retired from a distinguished career with the UN. He has written on the very topic in the 1980's in the New York Review of Books (If I remember correctly), and when contacted over a Television programme in which I was involved expressed some interest in the fate of the famopus pictures. So I see no reason to doubt that they were ever taken. I am sure they were, whether or not they survive however, is another matter. Its unlikely that the Squadron or the Pilots name were ever known to Ryan, and may not even have been known to U.

Best wishes


Chris Going

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dennis,
Thanks for the enlightment on NEW works published about the Market-Garden operation. I have read almost ALL books writen by Martin Middlebrook ( a Historian I trully admire ), but did not know about this new work. I will certainly have a careful look at it. BUT from what you say, HE also did not check the ORB´s for that day....Why? Such Historians do have access to them...Why one would forget the name or even to include those ( just one for us would be enough...) pictures on a book about the Operation? Those pictures ARE famous and almost stopped the whole operation! It seems strange to me too that they were "fake" photos. It seems that nobody gave them the right credit they deserved at that time. It would be nice to check IF they exist and who took it on that PR mission...
CHRIS GOING: Really wonderful to share with us the career of Sir Urquhart. I will try to find out the New York Review Book to check his interview. Do you have it with you or do you only remember to have seing it?
If I well remember seeing some photoplash during bombing of Germany and France by RAF planes, the name of the pilot and even the Squadron DID appear on the photographs. I even remember seeing information about the direction and wind velocity + coordinates of the target! Incredible, isn´t it?
May someone who has the ORB´s for 541 or 542 Squadron could help us. It seems it was a "fighter" ( at least this word was used on my portuguese version of the book ). I guess perhaps a 16 Squadron perhaps...Who knows?
Will try to figure out more about that...Thanks for your kind answer and for sharing your info.
Adriano

[Amrit1]

No new info but you maybe interested in reading this, Adriano:

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/peo...rt04-con6.html

and:

http://www.tacticaloperationscenter.com/Intell-M-G.htm

Major Brian Urquhart, the twenty-five year old intelligence chief on LTG Roy Browning's I Airborne Corps staff, was sufficiently alarmed to request that air reconnaissance be flown over the Arnhem area on 12 September, five days prior to D-Day. However, because of bad weather, sorties employing a total of eight aircraft were only flown on 12 and 16 September. Of the results of these flights though, there is a marked discrepancy. While the official post-war narrative says that "nothing significant" was observed; Major Urquhart recalled that five oblique angle pictures showed "the unmistakable presence of German armor" in the Arnhem area.

[Frank Olynyk]

A stub for the original article by Brian Urquhart can be found at http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arti...rticle_id=4678

From the New York Review of Books, Vol 34, No 14, Sept 24, 1987. For a $3 fee the full article can be read, and I assume saved to one's computer.

A bibliography of his writings in the NYRofBs is at http://www.nybooks.com/authors/83

A comment on the original article, and his response to it is at http://www.nybooks.com/articles/4560

Frank.

[Six Nifty .50s]

I have to wonder exactly what was photographed, and where. It's not clear if any of the few panzers that fought in Arnhem belonged to the 9th or 10th SS Panzer Divisions (I do not refer to those photographed after the battle). Elsewhere a company of non-SS heavy tanks (Tiger II) fought at Oosterbeek, with another company at Elst, but these units were in Germany when the battle began.

The film A Bridge Too Far fails to appreciate that Bittrich's Panzer Korps was almost completely destroyed in Normandy. The 9th and 10th SS divisions had more tail than teeth at that point. Most of their heavy equipment was wrecked or abandoned during the retreat to the Netherlands. Casualty reports suggested that division rear services and support units survived largely intact, but technicians and noncombat troops lacked the training to be employed as infantry. Bittrich was authorized to have about 400 tanks and self-propelled antitank guns. By 17th September 1944 he had about 35 panzers in working condition, and it appears that most if not all were re-tasked to Nijmegen, Elst or the Albert Canal area. The panzergrenadier battalions were also shattered in France and did not get many replacements. The armored recon battalion from the 9th SS was probably the only combat unit in good shape to intervene at Arnhem, but not for long thanks to bad leadership. In summary, Bittrich had a Panzer Korps only on paper and was so weak that he needed help from many other German units that were not mentioned in the movie.

[Dennis Peschier]

Adriano,
It is indeed strange that Middlebrook didn’t do more research on the PR missions. During his distinguished career he wrote many excellent books on WW2 air operations so he must be familiar with this material.

Chris, Amrit1, Frank
Thanks for sharing this with us. It would be interesting to know what he remembers about these photographs.

For those of you that are interested in the German tanks etc. I would advise “German Aroured Units at Arnhem, September 1944”by Marcel Zwarts. A 72 page book which lists numbers and types of vehicles for all units, many photographes that I had not seen before and some nice colour profiles.

Dennis

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Dennis Peschier

I would advise “German Aroured Units at Arnhem, September 1944”by Marcel Zwarts.Dennis

Robert Kershaw's "It Never Snows in September" (Ian Allan) is also very good on the German side of the fighting, including the many "scratch" units involved.

[Chris Going]

Adriano, You are quite right -some RAF aerials have time, aircraft identity letter, pilot name etc, axis of attack, etc, but these are images taken by slave cameras during bombing raids. They existed in the thousands, like US SAV images.

Reconnaissance imagery titling is a small-print interest: it was however highly formulaic, with Frame Number and camera position (3xxx for port, 4xxx for starboard usually; 0xxx for forward facing oblique, etc); Sortie identifier, (eg 106G; US7; 7PG, 15SG, etc, then date, then camera focal length (eg 6" 12" 20" 36" and occasionally even 40"), direction of film (often mistaken for a north arrow). There are lots of slight modifications depending on theatre etc.

I spent a lot of time trying to work out this film. There was a detachment of 16 Sdn at Northolt and it was almost certainly one of these. There is the possibility it was the Sdn CO, who was later killed, I think. Sixteen Squadron have a small but active veterans assoc, with which Jimmy Taylor is associated, and have been themselves working on this problem. Worth talking to them.

The 16 Sdn 'Line book' is interesting in this context too.

Oh yes -Dirk Bogarde's recent biography includes an interesting piece: in one of his autographical books puiblished years before he'd noted how he'd identified German tanks on some images taken in Normandy which weren't where they were suppoosed to be, and some years later had received a letter (and copied of the photos) from a High Ranking, retired Canadian who in effect said -you were the guy who saved my bacon.

I'll try to get the name of the Pilot. The point of this is that this information may only have existed as a line or two in a flash or first phase report, and that looking for a separate report wont get you very far, alas.

Military importance does'nt necessarily guarantee a sorties' survival -who has the prints from the amazing Geddes standoff sortie on June 6th? No film appears to exist, and I have only found one reduced print set. (No its not at Keele or JARIC).

best


Chris Going