Lent papers - a question

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Marius

Franek, the aerial combat of 131 eskadra with a "Me 110" is one of many legends published in Poland. You surely mean the victory of por. Lech Grzybowski. But he fought with a lone Heinkel He 46 of 4.(H)/23. The aircraft fell to the ground near Ozorkow. Both aircrew died.
I wrote about this in "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" in my article about the dyon III/3.

I cannot find the issue, do you remeber which one it was? Polish documents say about Me 110, though as yet I do not have a copy of Grzybowski's report. It is on a current wishlist and I want to get it as soon as possible.

Concerning por. Lapkowski`s combat on the 9th please read my article about Pursuit Brygada in the newest issue of Militaria XX wieku.

I did. You are drawing conclusions without any supporting documents.

The book "Lent Papers" does not contain unknown first hand accounts for the Polish campaign.

That is, what I wanted to know. Thanks.

[Marius]

 cannot find the issue, do you remeber which one it was?

Lotnictwo Wojskowe 3/2002, page 58-59.

 I did. You are drawing conclusions without any supporting documents.

For example?

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Many examples but where have you found that Horn was wounded on the afternoon? Where is the evidence of IV/1 attack on KG77 on 12.09.1939? Where is evidence that Wróblewski did not shot at Reither's aircraft?

[Marius]

Franek,

where have you found that Horn was wounded on the afternoon

About the pilot Zdzislaw Horn you have to check the Polish literature (for example Pawlak "Polskie eskadry..., page 43). Indeed Cynk wrote it was in the morning, but he is not given a source for the information.

Where is the evidence of IV/1 attack on KG77 on 12.09.1939

Look to Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie...", page 357. At midday 114 eskadra flew a sortie against German bombers directing to Lublin.

Where is evidence that Wróblewski did not shot at Reither's aircraft?

The German formation (5./KG 77) with Reither`s Do 17Z was attacked by 2 fighters. Wroblewski reported that he started alone. 4.Staffel`s report is confirming this. A lone pilot was attacking the Dornier coded 3Z+KM.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

About the pilot Zdzislaw Horn you have to check the Polish literature (for example Pawlak "Polskie eskadry..., page 43). Indeed Cynk wrote it was in the morning, but he is not given a source for the information.

Pawlak did not either and I would trust Cynk more. Anyway, the pilot did not know at which moment he has been hit, so how you can conclude it was a Stuka? It could have been virtually anything!

Look to Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie...", page 357. At midday 114 eskadra flew a sortie against German bombers directing to Lublin.

And in the very same sentence it is added, that they did not intercept the raid.

The German formation (5./KG 77) with Reither`s Do 17Z was attacked by 2 fighters. Wroblewski reported that he started alone. 4.Staffel`s report is confirming this. A lone pilot was attacking the Dornier coded 3Z+KM.

What is the source of the information? KTB? Is it confirmed by anything else?

[Marius]

Franek,

Pawlak did not either and I would trust Cynk more. Anyway, the pilot did not know at which moment he has been hit, so how you can conclude it was a Stuka? It could have been virtually anything!

Yes, of course it could be everything. Therefore I wrote "propably" Horn was hit by the Stuka pilot. I couldn`t find any other opponent "shot down" by Uffz. Rödiger.
As I remember Cynk is the only one who placed Horn`s wounding in the morning of the day. There is really no reason to trust him more than others.

 And in the very same sentence it is added, that they did not intercept the raid.

Yes, you are right, but this one is concluded by the author, isn`t it? Apparently 114th was the only unit flying sorties at this time.

 What is the source of the information?

KTB KG 77.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

Yes, of course it could be everything. Therefore I wrote "propably" Horn was hit by the Stuka pilot. I couldn`t find any other opponent "shot down" by Uffz. Rödiger.

Ridiculous explanation.

As I remember Cynk is the only one who placed Horn`s wounding in the morning of the day. There is really no reason to trust him more than others.

There is but for some weird reason you cannot understand that. Cynk is the only researcher, who get through Polish Institute archives - actually sorted them.

Yes, you are right, but this one is concluded by the author, isn`t it? Apparently 114th was the only unit flying sorties at this time.

It is only your assumption it was concluded by Cynk. Actually it was taken from Kowalczyk's report.

KTB KG 77.

OK. Anyway I will stick with Reither's version.

[Marius]

Franek,

 It is only your assumption it was concluded by Cynk. Actually it was taken from Kowalczyk's report.

Anyhow, you surely know when the report was written down. Kowalczyk was writing what remained in his mind.
So maybe you could tell us what pilots flew this mission and at what time exactly? Isn`t there anything about the names of the pilots?
I have here some German KTB`s of fighter units, where a mission is written as o.F. (ohne Feindberührung - without enemy contact). In fact there was a short clash with Polish aircraft, but nobody reported a confirmed victory. Therefore in the KTB it remained o.F.

Cynk is the only researcher, who get through Polish Institute archives - actually sorted them.

Cynk used many sources, not only the Polish Institute archives. However, he did not comment this information with any kind of a document or whatever.

 OK. Anyway I will stick with Reither's version.

OK. It is your decision. But what do you mean with Reither`s version? This one published in a Polish paper (SP) in the nineties?

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

Anyhow, you surely know when the report was written down. Kowalczyk was writing what remained in his mind.

To be exact, it is not known what was the basis of several of those reports. Some suggest, their authors had some sort of notes.

So maybe you could tell us what pilots flew this mission and at what time exactly? Isn`t there anything about the names of the pilots?

I have not yet received a list of individual sorties flown by fighters in 1939. Also, I have not yet researched Brygada Pościgowa.
[/quote]I have here some German KTB`s of fighter units, where a mission is written as o.F. (ohne Feindberührung - without enemy contact). In fact there was a short clash with Polish aircraft, but nobody reported a confirmed victory. Therefore in the KTB it remained o.F.[/quote]
Well, this is rather a proof of inaccuracies in German documents.

Cynk used many sources, not only the Polish Institute archives. However, he did not comment this information with any kind of a document or whatever.

Yes, indeed and it must be veified. Nonetheless Cynk's book as yet should have been regarded as a source book.

OK. It is your decision. But what do you mean with Reither`s version? This one published in a Polish paper (SP) in the nineties?

Yes.

[Marius]

Franek,

 To be exact, it is not known what was the basis of several of those reports. Some suggest, their authors had some sort of notes.

Now we are at the beginning again. So for what the whole discussion about the victory of the 114 eskadra?

I have not yet received a list of individual sorties flown by fighters in 1939. Also, I have not yet researched Brygada Pościgowa.

It is always easier to critisize someone`s work. Why won`t you start with hard evidences clearly showing that my researching is completely wrong?

 Well, this is rather a proof of inaccuracies in German documents.

Yes of course, so what? Have you now discovered America again? You will find such inaccuracies in every nation`s documents. I truly do not understand what you really want.

By the way, I read the Polish article about Reither`s mission on the 12th Sept. Where have you seen Reither`s report, his version or something like that? I couldn`t find it there.
Not only in this case an article is more important for you than the origin German document again? I can`t believe that. Why are you so instantly ignoring these documents?
You know the author of the article never saw any document of KG 77? Doesn`t matter?

Marius