3./JG 77 machine: or "A Little Brown Job to start 2014"!

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by ChrisS

I think you are being a just a tad touchy John, if anybody's not 'grown up' throwing their toys about its you. If you feel the 'criticism' is aimed at you then another proverb is due: If the cap fits wear it. Calm down please and be a little more grown up and let your anger disperse before posting.

Don't preach to me, Chris, and level accusations that don't hold water. I suggest you grow up in what you post, and stick to actual facts. Instead of a smokescreen of bullshit.

For the benefit of those members here who may not have read the thread on the other forum, let's look at what has occurred over on the other forum regarding brown numerals on 109s. Let's stick to facts as well, and not the hero-worship, adoration, of certain German researchers/authors that you have indulged in on the other forum.

Fact: Gerhard Stemmer listed a number of 109 units that used brown numerals, among them 3./Erpr, Gr. 210;
Fact: I asked where the information came from;
Fact: He said it was from GQM and NVM;
All the above was last Wednesday 15th January.
Fact: I posted that I had seen the GQMs from 1940 -1944, and I had a complete set of the Erprobungsgruppe 210 Namentliche Verlustmeldungen, and that brown numerals had never been mentioned in them. (Additional fact: had they been mentioned, I would have recorded the fact in my book on Erprobungsgruppe 210, 'Bombsights Over England').
Fact: Up to this morning, Gerhard Stemmer has not provided any further eveidence of his assertion that brown numerals were confirmed by either the GQM of NVM.

You know why, Chris? Because brown is not mentioned in the Nam Vers of either Lt. Horst Marx (PoW 15/8/40) nor Oblt. Otto Hintze (PoW 29/10/40).

Sorry if the truth hurts, Chris. Stick to historical facts, and not creeping to your heroes and believing everything they say.

Come back to me when you have something factual to say. About those two Erprobungsgruppe 210 incidents, for example...

[ChrisS]

Not sure what the moderators think of your language and your bullying and hectoring tone but you don't impress me. Your rudeness does not require another post.

[John Vasco]

Sorry Chris, but you are the one denigrating me on here, and on the other forum. Do you think I will just take it, without reply? Think again. I don't take rubbish from people like you...

Not sure what the Moderators will think of you taking unjustified pops at me in your previous posts. You just don't like it when a bully like you is counter-confronted.

Stick with your German 'heroes'. I'll continue to stick with factual research... Best you don't post. You've got nothing to say on the subject!

[ChrisS]

John you need to calm down, let's stop this mud slinging which does you or I little credit. I apologise to you if my comment had upset you. My hope is that those experts in the Jagdwaffe will be able to provide you with the physical proof you require, perhaps when the dust has settled.

[John Vasco]

Chris,
I don't need to calm down. You comment didn't upset me. I am just surprised that you are prepared to accept what one person says on a forum without any supporting evidence to back it up.
The problem, and it is a problem for Gerhard Stemmer now, is that he blandly alleged that he had evidence in Namentliche Verlustmeldugen that 3./210 used brown numbers. Now maybe Gerhard Stemmer didn't know that I obtained a full set of Nam Ver from the Deutsch Dienststelle (WASt.) in the 1980s. I can even tell you the name of the person in the WASt. who handled the request for me, arranged the copies, and had them sent to me via Karl-Fritz Schröder - it was Frau Busekow.
I don't know what research you have done, or not, over the years.
But I do know this: there was no entry on the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen for both Lt. Horst Marx and Oblt. Otto Hintze showing they flew 'Brown 3' and 'Brown 6' respectively.

You see Chris, you can hope all you like that the physical proof will be provided. But with regard to 3./210, it's not there.
And here's the deal. If you want to see all the copies of the Nam Ver that I obtained from WASt., I will quite happily arrange to meet you in London on a date of your choosing and I will take you to the Archive where all my research papers are now stored and you can go through the lot with me:Erpr. Gr. 210 - SKG 210 - ZG 1. 1940 to 1944. If you are agreeable, let's fix it up. I'm retired, so my time is my own. I've got nothing to hide on this one. Happy to invest the time and money for you to see the lot. I cannot be fairer than that.

[ChrisS]

Thank you John a kind offer. Sadly I still work, 4 kids, own business, so it would be a problem meeting, as much as I really would like too

Courtesy of Clint on LEMB:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=2#entry114511

If not a member try this:

http://ww2.dk/misc/jg2loss.pdf

Check out page 6

[John Vasco]

Chris,
I understand your work situation. However what I said in my last post is an open-ended offer, so if at some time in the future you have time away from your self-employment and wish to take me up on the offer of seeing all my research material, just PM me and we'll take it from there.

As you would expect, I have been keeping up with the discussion on LEMB.

[John Beaman]

OK, guys, let's be cool about the personal comments.

These forums are not about ego(s) but our best research efforts and history.

[ouidjat]

Hi Guys,

I didn't remember this !!!
Well ... it seems someone did provide some original LW loss documents confirming that the word "Braune" is written on these documents. What's more?
This and what we can "see" on pictures must be enough to say that Brown was effectively in use for code numbers.



Regards, Franck.

[ouidjat]

... And to put my "document" contribution just find here Under one page kindly put here by Byron.
Read 17.) 15.JG 51 please.

Cheers, Franck.