Russian use of Handley Page Hampdens

[Laurent Rizzotti]

From a now defunct website listing the losses of the Soviet Northern Fleet Aviation, I have the following Hampden losses by 24 MTAP/9 GMTAP:

01 Nov 42: one Hampden crashed at Vaenga-1 airfield, no casualty reported
18 Nov 42: one Hampden crashed at Vaenga-1 airfield, one KIFA
21 Dec 42: one Hampden crashed, crew wounded
01 Jan 43: one Hampden crashed in the sea near Vardo, 4 KIA
12 Jan 43: one Hampden did not return from a mission, 4 KIA
14 Jan 43: one Hampden shot down in the sea, 4 KIA
29 Jan 43: one Hampden shot down over a convoy (4 KIA) and another damaged and forcelanded on Rybachy peninsula, 1 WIA
31 Jan 43: one Hampden shot down, 4 KIA
10 Apr 43: one Hampden shot down by a Bf 110 over the Tana Fjord, 4 KIA
25 Apr 43: one Hampden shot down, 4 KIA
02 May 43: one Hampden shot down, 4 KIA
08 May 43: one Hampden shot down, 4 KIA
02 Jun 43: one Hampden crashed near Vaenga, 3 KIFA, 1 WIFA
23 Jun 43: one Hampden shot down in Pummanki area, crew safe
04 Jul 43: two Hampdens shot down by 70°08 N 30°40 E, crews safe

We have 17 entries for the 20 Hampdens transferred to Soviet control.

But please note differences with the long text by Mr Geust above. For example, he had four accidents (two Hampden destroyed and two damaged) during the training in 1942, while there are 3 entries above, and he says that on 21 Dec 1942 the CO of 24 MTAP, Lt.Col. Vedmedenko, who was killed.

I would rather believe Mr Geust than me, but in this case he seems to be wrong: various Russian sites says that that Vedmedenko took command of 24 MTAP on 20 Dec 42 and was killed on 16 Mar 43 (no Hampden loss this day, but a DB-3, also used by the regiment, was lost, 1 KIA).
And this date is confirmed on the OBD Memorial for Soviet WWII dead:
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=76521463

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

Thank you Laurent for the correction concerning Lt.Col. Nikolai Vedmedenko (C.O. 24 MTAP), who as you correctly point out was killed 16 March 1943 in an unsuccessful landing with an Il-4 (DB-3f) at Kildin island, upon return from a torpedo attack to Bosjord. The other crew members were only slightly hurt.
I do have this entry as well in my Soviet loss file, and did unfortunately not compare (and delete) my erroneous Hampden entry for 21 Dec 1942. According to my notes the source of this entry is the unpublished history of VVS SF in the Russian naval archive in Gatchina, which I visited in the 1990s.

[andy bird]

Diary extract from Jack D:

Days grow shorter, boredom set in. Headquarters taking time to arrange our return. Eventually decided to hand over the 23 Hampdens to Russian Navy.

also

Grant [Lindeman] interviewed on BBC upon our return:

'He was asked if he had enjoyed the visit to Russia and he replied 'if the opportunity comes for us to return to Russia again, we would gladly stand aside and allow someone else to go.'

Footnote: This was broadcast live and did not impress the RAF Top Brass.

Regards

Andy Bird

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Juha

Yes, there was also a Catalina sqn for searches, altogether 32 Hampdens, 13 Catalinas and 4 Spitfires to protect PQ-18 and QP-14. Hampdens flew only one mission searching Tirpitz for an attack but found nothing. Then it was decided that flight back to GB against prevailing winds would be too foolhardy

Juha,

Do you know anything about the fate of the Catalinas? The Hampdens and Spitfires have been written about in Russian sources, but I've never seen anything on the Catalinas.

For reference, the 3 links below have data relevant to the transfer flights:

1. Brief mention of the operation
http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/histo...pden-AE436.htm

2. List of Hampdens lost on the way to the USSR
http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/tsatsa.html

3. Mention of one of the lost Hampden aircrew murdered during the Great Escape
http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/

Regards,

Paul

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Carl-Fredrik Geust

Below please find the updated Hampden section from my book Red Stars Vol.4 "Lend-lease Aircraft in the USSR" (sold-out long time ago)

Hello,

Thank you very much for sharing this most interesting extract! On the issue of ship sinkings, I seem to remember from Miroslav Morozov's recent book on Soviet torpedo-bombers that the Hampdens did not hit any ships themselves, it was the DB-3s that scored successes, but I will check whether my memory is correct.

I have sent you a private message on another topic.

Regards,

Paul

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

From a now defunct website listing the losses of the Soviet Northern Fleet Aviation, I have the following Hampden losses by 24 MTAP/9 GMTAP:

Hello Laurent,

Do you have the whole list of losses from eismeerfront.com ? That was a great resource until it disappeared!

You need to clear your private message inbox, by the way

Regards,

Paul

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Juha,

Do you know anything about the fate of the Catalinas? The Hampdens and Spitfires have been written about in Russian sources, but I've never seen anything on the Catalinas.

For reference, the 3 links below have data relevant to the transfer flights:

1. Brief mention of the operation
http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/histo...pden-AE436.htm

2. List of Hampdens lost on the way to the USSR
http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/tsatsa.html

3. Mention of one of the lost Hampden aircrew murdered during the Great Escape
http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/gt_esc/

Regards,

Paul

Not much, there is a short mention in http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/210_wwII.html. Also some in a couple books. According to Ashworth's RAF Coastal Command 1936-1969 (1992) p. 62 none of the Catalinas were lost. There is also an article or two in old Aeroplane Monthly/ies on Catalina activities in Spitzbergen which might have been connected with PQ 18 but I cannot remember exactly the dates of those ops. They were connecting on the reoccupation of Spitzbergen by the Free Norway Forces with the help of RAF and RN.
And the story of the Handley-Page HP52 Hampden TB.1 - Serial # AE436 144 Squadron, Leuchars, Scotland, that crashed in Tsatsa mountain in Sweden on the way to Afrikanda, a Russian airfield located S of Murmansk is given here http://www.forcedlandingcollection.s...024-AE436.html
The track of the only Reconnaissance in force mission flown by the 23 Hampdens can be found in RAAF in WWII Ch11 War at Sea Jan-Sept 42 p. 296 which is digitalized and can be found in the net.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Hello Laurent,

Do you have the whole list of losses from eismeerfront.com ? That was a great resource until it disappeared!

You need to clear your private message inbox, by the way

Regards,

Paul

Yes, yes, and done. I have an Excel file compiling Soviet losses from various Internet sources (as I am now used to see them disappear, I try to save them on my computer regularly). Please send a private message with your e-mail adress if you're interested.

By the way another useful link for Soviet airmen losses in the North:
http://sk16.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Juha

Not much, there is a short mention in http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/210_wwII.html. Also some in a couple books. According to Ashworth's RAF Coastal Command 1936-1969 (1992) p. 62 none of the Catalinas were lost. There is also an article or two in old Aeroplane Monthly/ies on Catalina activities in Spitzbergen which might have been connected with PQ 18 but I cannot remember exactly the dates of those ops. They were connecting on the reoccupation of Spitzbergen by the Free Norway Forces with the help of RAF and RN.

Hello Juha,

Thank you for a very good review of the various sources! I will follow up and see if I can find anything on Catalina operations in Russian.

Having consulted Morozov's book, I can say that my memory was wrong and it was in fact the Hampdens that sank the Leesee. See summary of the three notable attacks below:

On 14 January 1943, 2 Hampdens attacked a convoy with 2 torpedoes, the submarine chaser UJ 1108 was slightly damaged by machine-gun fire with 1 dead and 2 wounded on board. 1 Hampden flown by Bashtyrkov was shot down.

On 25 April 1943, 5 Hampdens attacked a large convoy with 5 torpedoes, the transport ship Leesee of 2624 grt was sunk with the loss of 3 members of the crew. 1 Hampden flown by Kiselev (who hit Leesee) was shot down.

On 4 July 1943, 3 Il-4s and 2 Hampdens attacked a convoy with 5 torpedoes, the transport ship Pernambuco was slightly damaged by machine-gun fire. 1 Il-4 (flown by Balashov) and 2 Hampdens (flown by Shipilov and Mart’yanov) were shot down.

There were no successes in any of the other torpedo-bomber missions flown by the Hampdens.

Regards,

Paul

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Yes, yes, and done. I have an Excel file compiling Soviet losses from various Internet sources (as I am now used to see them disappear, I try to save them on my computer regularly). Please send a private message with your e-mail adress if you're interested.

By the way another useful link for Soviet airmen losses in the North:
http://sk16.ru/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

Hello Laurent,

Thank you very much for your offer! Have sent you a private message now.

The link is very good. It seems to provide registers of personnel losses for almost all air units of the VVS Northern Fleet.

Regards,

Paul