Seeking info on P/O Roi Leonard Saunders KIA May 22nd 1940

[rafcommands]

Hi Paul,

As I progressed with AFL I wondered about this and considered if it was vestiage of paper transfer using a unissued/free service number.

The possible senario was enlistment into AAF, service as either ground or Sgt Pilot then commission.

The F1180 shows date of wings as April 1937 and The Gazette as Commission to RAFO Dec 1936. This negates the possibility of AAF service as Sgt Pilot and age would make any reasonable service time as OR groundcrew before selection for pilot training an outside possibility.

In addition progress to Commission via AAF structure would have a more likely result in AAF appointment rather than Class A in the RAFO.

I did also consider the senario of pre war service in RAF then re-enlistment into AAF as OR but the AIR 78 card lacks the normal Class F marking. AFL also shows continuous service from 1936 to advent of war and posting to No.57 Sqn from Nov 1938.

All a bit contrived to link the 800420 to 70602 but possible that for admin/attestation he attended the local AAF unit at Hendon for short induction while waiting for Commission appointment and course commencement at FTS. If he undertook any prolonged on unit training it would have steered a career towards AAF.

Edit:
More AFL diving brings up posting as APO 16 Jan 1937 to No.8 FTS under instruction.

Ross

[paulmcmillan]

Ross

Thanks - It appears he was from St Albans, Herts area (actually Bricket Wood) so entirely feasible he could have been at 600 Sqn in Hendon especially as it is just a drive down A5 (Watling Road)

Paul

[BlenheimBuff]

Hello Paul,

This really is turning into a can of worms isn't it!!

The whole RAF service numbering system is a bit of a minefield. Thanks for coming up with this particular quirk of the system, which as you point out seems to suggest that Roi Saunders was a pre-war AAF flyer with 600 Sqn. This sqn would have been equipped with the Mk1F Blenheim immediately prior to the war, so would explain why P/O Saunders ended up flying Blenheims with 57 sqn.

Many thanks to Ross, Dave and yourself for moving my understanding of this chap forward.

Regards,

Ian Marchant

[BlenheimBuff]

Sorry, I hadn't read Ross's last entry before my previous reply. So it's not conclusive that Roi Saunders flew with 600 Sqn prior to his commission in the RAFVR? and his initial service number may just have been an administrative expedient?

If there's an ORB for 600 sqn perhaps that would yield some information.

Regards,

Ian

[BlenheimBuff]

Ross/Paul,

I have now had the opportunity to review the 600 Sqn ORB for the period 1925 to late 1939, and can confirm that the name Saunders does not appear in any entries. That being said, there were 14 unnamed civilian OR entrants in January 1935, and so I'm wondering if Roi Saunders could have been one of these. He would have just turned 18 at this point, so the sort of age that you might expect him to be taking such a step.

Would it be possible for him to have served as OR with 600 sqn? perhaps even to have subsequently applied for an AAF commission, been rejected.....and then applied for a reserve commission instead? Looking at the ORB it is clear that 600 Sqn had a high rejection rate, presumably the result of "pre-war gentlemans' club" type thinking. Roi Saunders was from a working class background, so not necessarily the right 'type' for 600 Sqn at that time.

Any further thoughts appreciated.

Ian

[rafcommands]

The answer is in his service records - apart from facts from published primary sources all is "typically", "probably", "normally", "usually" etc.

Between the wars (early 30s) there were three main formations that made up the Air Force = Regular, Auxiliary and Reserve.

To prevent the regular force stagnating with long term personnel who were not competent in increasingly technical eqypment and warfare methods a system of short service commissions was used. Most officers served for a period of not more than five years then were obligated to spend a defined number of years on the reserve list. The few who showed an aptitude for higher command were offered permanent commissions and joined the small numbers of Cranwell trained long termers.

The contraction of service after the great war had resulted in a very small regular service, mostly occupied in policing duties in the middle east and a large reserve that by the late 20s lacked current training on newer service types.

All the abpve was mainly concerned with Commissioned Officers, OR ground trades were not considered generally for reserve service of any length, only a few individuals being marked for reserve cadre.

In the mid 1930s the RAF embarked on the various expansion schemes which initially resulted in the regular force being expanded by extending most short service commissions by a few years. As new equipment arrived new direct entry officers were commissioned to man them but aerodrome construction to house the expanded Air Forces was the initial limiter.

The expansion of Regular resulted in a dramtic drop in Class A, B and C entry to the reserve. The Treasury had agreed to a certain size of reserve and rather than keeping on poorly trained men at the end of their reserve comittment the Air Forces sought to bring in direct entrants who had no previous service and train them to the same standard as new entry regulars.

This would eliminate the "5 year" skills gap between regular service and Class B/C reserves.

Both Regular and Auxiliary had associated reserve forces eg Reserve of Air Force Officers = RAFO and Auxiliary Air Force Reserve of Officers = AAFRO.

Still with me?

So in late 1936 Saunders with previous AAF service would have had no real numbers bar to Commission within the AAF or its associated reserve AAFRO. This would be the "normal" and "usual" route to Commission.

As to joining AAF in 1935 although his age by modern standards is adequate it is a bit young for the expansion period who looked for previous mechanical skills for new entry ground crews.

All the evidence points to the fact that Saunders was not a civil trained pilot at entry eg no Royal Aero Club Licence and 3 months normal Flying Training Course after entry before award of wings.

I look to his Commission into the RAFO as significant and a sign that he was "second string" choice for the regular force. Essentially the regular force was "parking" him for the ealy 40s by giving current flying training and a commitment to maintain his service type flying experience for the next 5 years.

My take on the senario is that the local AAF unit is instructed to take him for a few months and give some service induction/basic drill training etc that he would lack with Direct RAFO entry.

The only way the AAF unit could handle the admin is to assign him a service number to track kit/training issue etc.

After flying training at No.8 FTS he continues to appear in Air Force List as RAFO but the "where serving" is denoted by "-" saying although on the reserve list he was not on the resident strength of any regular unit.

It is not until the Expansion scheme about Munich time that he is recalled into resident stregth of No.57 Squadron and his current service type training is strengthened.

As to where currency flying training took place between No.8 FTS and No.57 Sqn the hours on type listed on the 1939 F1180 Accident Card suggest that since only 1/3 of total hours is on Blenheim it was either on units where Blenheim was not the primary type or on secondary types of Bomber Units.

As to class bar, remember that the RAFVR was formed in July 1936 so this usually would have been an easier route into RAF reserve service for him.

Ross

[BlenheimBuff]

Ross,

Thanks for that excellent analysis, you've certainly covered all of the scenarios very thoroughly. I think the next step is for me to bite the bullet and stump up for the service record. Let's just hope it includes his service history prior to the 70602 service number being issued.

Thanks once again for taking the time to explain the relevant issues.

Regards,

Ian

[BlenheimBuff]

OK, one final update on this thread:

I will be requesting this Officer's service record to hopefully clarify the points already discussed, but in the meantime there are several facts that are now evident, and which I'll document here for those interested.

I have now had the opportunity to read all of the 600 Squadron ORB entries covering 1931 to 1939. This ORB is very precise and comprehensive compared to others that I've examined. Temporary attachments and postings are religiously documented, as are the names of applicants granted commissions. Other Ranks (OR) are another kettle of fish, and their names appear sparingly.....if at all. My findings are:

1) No reference to R.L. Saunders appears anywhere in the 600 Sqn ORB.

2) If, as has been suggested, Roi Saunders was allocated a 600 Sqn service number as some sort of bureaucratic expedient prior to commencement of commissioned aircrew training, then I would expect that number to be a 90000 series number, as befitting an Officer. Several new commissioned entrants to the squadron proper date to this period: J.H.C.Rowe (Jan '35 - 90089), A.McLachlan (Feb '35 - 90085), H.Coghlan (Feb '35 - 90117), C.A.Pritchard (May '36 - 90092)........ALL have 90000 series numbers.

3) 1 reference is made in 1935 to an aircraftsman named Pestell, referring to AIR78 records show his service number to be 800337, relatively close to Roi Saunders' number 800420.

4) All of my reading on 600 Sqn has shown it to be an extremely elitist unit, which recruited almost exclusively from moneyed members of the Banking/Insurance/Finance institutions in the City of London. I doubt that they would have entertained the idea of a temporary secondment by someone of Roi Saunders' background, awaiting commission or otherwise.

Obviously final confirmation will have to await Roi Saunders service records, but my gut feeling based on the above is as follows. I think Roi Saunders may have had some sort of work connection in the City of London, which lead to him joining 600 Sqn AAF as OR in 1935. After serving a year as OR he saw the creation of the RAFVR as a means of achieving an aircrew commission which would have been impossible for him within the AAF. He applies for an RAFVR commission, probably at nearby Hatfield where an E & RFTS has been established, is accepted, but retains his existing AAF service number. He attends No.8 E&RFTS at Montrose, where he is allocated to twins and wins his wings, subsequently attending Hatfield at weekends to keep his hours up to requirement......mostly I would imagine on Tiger Moths (hence the relatively low number of Blenheim hours on the 8th August '39 crash card). Prior to November 1938 whenever his status changes his name would be associated with his old AAF service number, which would be interpreted as indicating membership of the RAFO as opposed to the RAFVR. All of this becomes academic when he is issued with his regular RAF service number in Nov '38

All very speculative I admit, so it will have to await the service record for confirmation.

Regards,

Ian

[rafcommands]

Sorry Ian but you are not grasping the differences in numbers.

An Other Rank had a Service Number and a Commissioned Officer a Personal Number.

At any point in time no Commissioned Officer could not retain any issued OR number. Records Section could not do this as per Kings Regulations and Air Council Instructions.

The record cards and reporting/recording methods were completely at odds for any overlap or continuation.

On the day his RAFO Commission was promulgated for being Gazetted his Officer Record Card would have been opened with his RAFO Personal Number in alphabetic order with all other RAFO Commissions on that day. From that point his Personal Number would be retained unless he changed from RAFO to RAF, AAF or RAFVR (pre war admin rules). It was not until late 1930s that Gazette or AFL printed the numbers but they were in use by Records.

If he changed from RAFO there would be a Gazette entry resigning his RAFO state and appointing as X. This would also be recorded in the monthly Air Force List.

For an example of this see Carr-Ellison entry in AAF section resigning his AAF Commission to transfer to RAF on the same page that Saunders RAFO P/O seniority is confirmed.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../8139/data.pdf

At no point did this happen for Saunders so Commissioned into RAFO and remained in RAFO.

The importance of this for both OR and Commissioned was that there were different terms of service between RAF, AAF and RAFVR eg AAF could not legally serve overseas only in UK mainland - one of the reasons for exclusive use of RAFVR intake for Hostilities Only.

Give both numbers and say assumed OR service otherwise Disclosures may not supply Form 543 for any OR service.

The date for No.8 FTS (it was not designated Elementary and Reserve in 1936) was after Gazetted Commission so he attended as an Acting Pilot Officer in the RAFO not AAF or RAFVR.

Application for Commission within a service RAF, AAF or RAFVR was very much considered solely within the service. It was highly unusual for a service to reject a commission appicant and then sucessfully fob him off for some other service to fund while retaining the benefit.

Wings are awarded on completion of FTS course (usually just after solo on single) Im 1936/57/38 Twin conversion was on unit following passing out of FTS.

Ross

[BlenheimBuff]

OK Ross, I promise not to raise your blood pressure any further over this thread!!

Did notice that Roi Saunders is listed in the Jan 1939 AFL (page 1282) under Relinquishments and Resignations as having transferred from RAFO to RAF as of November 1938 when he joined 57 Squadron......but as you point out nothing prior to that.

I take on board everything that you're saying, I just find it hard to understand how he could have been commissioned in the RAFO as Class A based on what we know about him.

Thanks for the advice regarding Disclosures, I'll make sure to make reference to the possibility of OR service pre-commission.

Regards,

Ian