A couple of silly LW questions...

[NickM]

Guys:

I guess this is the place so here goes:

When did LW High command finally realize that their current replacement system of training & assignment fighter pilots was not turning out enough well trained pilots to make good their losses? I mean ultimately they failed but was there a point when suddedly 'higher up' realized that there was a problem?
I recall reading 'The First Team' (admittedly that was the IJNAF) & was surprised to learn that even in the first 6 months of the war the IJN was having problems with shortages of pilots;

Second: A question RE: the Mk108 30 mm cannon: What was it's "practical" effective range when used against other fighters; It's well known that the Mk 108 could destroy a Heavy Bomber with a few hits & a single hit against a 'regular' single engine aircraft could destroy it---but then again the MK108 had a high rate of fire & a short effective range, so one had to balance getting in close to shoot vs having to fly thru a lot of very dangerous debris---The Lipfert War Diary made mention of a couple of hits from a Mk 108 basically blowing an IL 2 apart---and Lipfert darned near got brought down by the resulting flying wreckage, including a huge chung of the IL2's engine;

Thanks, ahead of time

NickM

[ChrisMAg2]

As for second:
The MK 108 had rather low rate of fire (therefor it was nicknamed "pavementbuster" by US-pilots). And usually you would only carry arround 90 rounds per gun. The max range was IIRC arnd 2000m, but it was practically used within 300 - 400m. Not much nearer because of debris, not very much further away because of the ballistik curve and deviation.
AFAIK the couped aiming devices for this guns were set at around 300 - 400m in avarage.

[George Hopp]

I would say that it became obvious that the German Air Force air strategy was bankrupt, when, on 18 Aug 43, the Luftwaffe's Chief of Staff, Jeschonnek, blew his brains out. He was the same person, who in early 1942 wondered what the Luftwaffe could do with a production of 360 fighters per month.

In the Bf 109, the MK 108 was zeroed in at 400m. But, many of the most successful fighter pilots got as close as they could before firing. As Christian said above, the MK 108 carried little ammunition. So, the pilot had to use it sparingly. For example, the outer MK 108s in the Fw 190 carried 55rpg, and the central MK 108 in the 109G/U4 carried 65rpg.

[NickM]

Thank you both for your answers...funny about the Mk108; I thought it had a fairly high rate of fire (hence the 'jackhammer/pavement breaker' nickname--those things have always sounded fast to me!) but that it's muzzle velocity was low, making for a darned funny in flight trajectory. Also, I didn't realize that it was effective out to 300-400 meters.

NickM

[George Hopp]

Well, Nick, effective is a relative term. So, while the MK 108 shell would be great for blasting apart a bomber at 400m, you wouldn't want to be using it against a fighter because it had a such a low velocity and low cyclical rate. For instance, while it had an initial velocity of 500m/sec, by 400m it was down to ca. 331m/sec, needed a full second to get there, and (as I recall) had dropped 4.16m by the time it got there. So, it would not be a great weapon to use against a maneuvering fighter.

Yes, Lipfert used it to blow apart some IL-2s, but then he was a fantastic air fighter.

[NickM]

No doubt George; I think Lipfert described a Mk108 cannon shell as flying so slowly that it was visible in flight arcing 'like a small mortar bomb' & hitting with as much impact; no doubt it was NOT a good weapon to use against a manuvering fighter but IF you hit it...

NickM

[JerryBoucher]

It wasn't a given that the MK108 could destroy a bomber with 'a few hits' - IIRC, one Luftwaffe veteran said that it needed '7 or 8 shots, in the right place'. Alot of whats said about the weapon was based on static tests, which is much different that actual use in a combat situation.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by JerryBoucher

It wasn't a given that the MK108 could destroy a bomber with 'a few hits' - IIRC, one Luftwaffe veteran said that it needed '7 or 8 shots, in the right place'. Alot of whats said about the weapon was based on static tests, which is much different that actual use in a combat situation.

No doubt Jerry! I often wonder how such a weapon was useful when used against a single engine opponent...probably an 'average' pilot would find it next to impossible to use in a 'dogfight'

NickM