Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12th March 2026, 15:31
Chrisyates Chrisyates is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 40
Chrisyates is on a distinguished road
Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

P/O Nicholson of 402 Squadron RCAF claimed a Me 262 kill on 13/3/45. However, according to his combat report (Air 50/137/18) there is a hand written note "film shows Ar 234", presumably gun camera footage.
I can find no record of combat losses for an Ar 234 on that date so is it an Me 262 as originally claimed?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th March 2026, 16:48
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 6,276
Nick Beale is a jewel in the roughNick Beale is a jewel in the roughNick Beale is a jewel in the roughNick Beale is a jewel in the rough
Re: Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

Luftwaffenkommando West reported losses of both types on the 13th:

Bundesarchiv RL 2-II/842 (my translation):

Supplement to evening report West, 13.3.45:

Attack on bridge and bridgehead at Remagen

III./KG 76: 11 Ar 234 from 09.09–14.00 hrs. made flight formation attack at 500 m. with EGON (radar) control: 1 HC 1000 kg, 5 HC 500 kg bombs, and 3 500 kg containers of 10 kg anti-personnel, effects not being observed. Two aircraft broke off operation owing to technical defects, and EGON control failed in two aircraft. No casualties.

6 aircraft made glide attacks from 17.11–18.27 hrs. at 2000–900 m. on the railway and pontoon bridge and Mergentheim–Bonn road. 5 aircraft completed the operation, dropping 4 HC 1000 kg bombs and 1 500 kg container of 10 kg anti-personnel bombs, effect not being observed.

1 aircraft owing to technical breakdown had to jettison bombs (1 500 kg container of 10 kg anti-personnel bombs) in Lippstadt area.

No casualties.

2 Ar 234 made armed reconnaissance of the bridgehead at Remagen. Glide attack from 800 m with 2 500 kg containers of 10 kilo anti-personnel bombs on the township of Oberwinter. Owing to strong AA defence effects not observed. Air combat with 4 Mustangs. No successes.

Casualties: p 0-0-0, m 1-0-0

KG 51: 4 Me 262 made an attack from 09.05–10.02 hrs. at 5000 m on crossing operations and the Remagen bridgehead with 8 250 kg containers of 10 kg anti-personnel bombs. effects not observed owing to fighter defence. Air combat with 10 Thunderbolts. No successes.

Casualties: p 0-1-0, m 0-1-1

[p = personnel killed-missing-wounded, m = material lost-missing-damaged]


ULTRA decrypt CX/MSS/T488/103
No. 153 B, stamped 1100/14/3, from PEBOB ((Battle Unit Kowalewski)) marked to “forward to GAKAS ((AO for Bombers))”:-
1) 13/3
2) 28 Ar, 37 Me
3) 20 Ar, 26 Me (of which 1 Ar and 1 Me broke off)
4) (A) Remagen Bridgehead: good hits using EGON and glide approach. (B) Troops in area Cleves. Effect not observed owing to poor visibility.
5) 1 Ar total loss. Pilot uninjured. 3 Me total loss. 1 pilot uninjured. 2 pilots missing. 2 Me damaged in emergency landing. 2 pilots (B% uninjured). 1 pilot wounded in air battle.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th March 2026, 19:54
Chrisyates Chrisyates is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 40
Chrisyates is on a distinguished road
Re: Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

Thanks for the information Nick
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12th March 2026, 20:36
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 973
Karoband has a spectacular aura aboutKaroband has a spectacular aura aboutKaroband has a spectacular aura about
Re: Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

John Foreman on p. 233 of his Victory Claims/Part Three, (Red Kite, 2012), gives the time of Nicholson's claim as "16.55" and the place as "E. Munster".

However, on checking Air 50/137/18, Nicholson does not give a time but his sortie is "16.47 - 17.58". He gives the place as "Gladbach" and was flying a Spitfire XIV.

Jan Horn, KG 76: Die Chronik ..., (2019), p. 254, gives:

"Zwischen 15:39 Uhr bis 16:35 Uhr wird eine Rotte Ar 234 B-2 der 9./KG 76 zur Bewaffneten Wetteraufklaerung bis Brueckenkopfes Remagen eingestetzt. Fw. Alfred Hachmann startet als Erster mit der Ar 234 B-2 (F1+OT; Werk-Nr. 140179) um 15:39 Uhr zu diesem Auftrag. Ihm folgt Uffz. Rudolf Zweiner seiner Ar 234 B-2. Am Ziel schiesst mittlere Flak heftiges Sperrfeuer. Die beiden Maschinen werden durch "Egon" ans Ziel gefuehrt. Hachmann greift im Horizontalflug aus 800 m die Stadmitte Oberwinter mit dem AB 500/SD 10 an. Beide Flugzeugfuehrer koennen die Bombenwirkung wegen starker Flakabwehr nicht beobachten. Vier "Mustang"s greifen die beiden Ar 234 mir Beschuss an. Hachmanns Maschine erhaelt einen Kanonentraffer. Waehrend Fw. Hachmann um 16:35 Uhr wieder in Achmer landet, muss Uffz. Rudolf Zweiner ueber Wesendorf seine Ar 234 B-2 aufgeben und mit dem Fallschirm abspringen."

Taking into account that the Me 262's op was in the morning, the lateness of the op of Zweiner, the similarity of P-51Ds and Spitfire XIVs with bubble canopies, and the cine film showing an Ar 234, I think Zweiner is a good candidate as Nicholson's claim.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15th March 2026, 11:18
Chrisyates Chrisyates is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 40
Chrisyates is on a distinguished road
Re: Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

Thanks Jim.
I have been doing some further digging in my files and have come up with some additional information.
Jan Horn records 10 flights by Zwiener between 18/12/44 and 21/2/45 in Ar 234 140175 F1+HT. On the last flight it is recorde that the plane veered to the left on landing at Achmer and suffered 50% damage. It was sent to WAGO depot at Eschwege for repairs. Smith and Creek record this airframe as captured by US forces at Eschwege in early April 45. So this is not the airtframe in question for loss of 13/3/45. Also noted is a replacement F1+HT 140596 from 30/3/45.
I have also been checking locations and make comments as follows:
Nicholson gives place as GLADBACK (not Gladbach, completely wrong location), I would suggest this could be Gladbeck, approx 120 km N of Remagen area.
Horn states Zwiener parachuted over WESENDORF, but again this is completely the wrong location. I would suggest that Warendorf was more likely which is approx 20 km east of Munster and 60 km south of Achmer

Hope this is of interest, regards, Chris
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15th March 2026, 13:20
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 973
Karoband has a spectacular aura aboutKaroband has a spectacular aura aboutKaroband has a spectacular aura about
Re: Jet loss 13/3/45 Me 262 or Ar 234

Thanks, Chris. It makes perfect sense. Foreman got it right. But it seems he was not using the claim report.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oberleutnant Korn of FAGr 5: Arado Ar 234 question Thijs Lepstra Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 20th February 2026 20:22
Loss B-17F G 42-107044 1st. Lt. John R. Weaver streak98 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 6 28th January 2026 09:12
Arado Ar 66 top pilot Ludwig Bellof knusel Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 12th January 2026 18:36
Photo with the plate of Bf 109E-7 WNr 6409 (1./SchG1) and conflicting record in 6.Abt.Qu loss return Andrey Kuznetsov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 20th May 2025 20:32
Information concerning the loss of Obergefreiter Artur Willems - KG55 - killed 17.09.42 rickback4444 Memorial Cards 1 8th January 2025 23:07


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net