Clostermann official score

[Nick Beale]

I always wondered why he had that letter from Broadhurst. I don't remember reading that any other 2TAF pilot had (or requested) one, or did every successful pilot receive such a letter from the Air Marshal?

[phasselgren]

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Franek,

"found on the web" might be doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I haven't read the article Nick referenced, but I did go through the following sources from The National Archives some time ago with regard to Clostermann's 1945 claims:

AIR 37/829 - Weekly Reports of Enemy Aircraft Losses inflicted by 2nd TAF (these reports were updated and amended as new info came to hand)
AIR 50 - combat report series
AIR 27 - Squadron ORB series

The one source I haven't checked re: Clostermann is AIR 37/5 - 2nd TAF Log of Casualty Claims, Assessments and Losses. This file is likely as definitive as a single source can be.

Anyway, the following is what I noted (FALSE means the claim is not recorded in any of the three sources mentioned, but I haven't checked TNA AIR 37/5. CR means a Combat Report exists in TNA AIR 50. 2nd TAF EAL means TNA AIR 37/829):

5/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "In HENGELO area")

14/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X
2 x Bf109 probable DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

28/3/45 56
1 x Fi156 DES on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "A.8989")

2/4/45 56
1 x Fw190 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")
2 x Ju88 DAM on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")

5/4/45 56
2 x Fw190 DAM (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "Patrols & Armed recces RHEINE-LINGEN-MEPPEN")
1 x Ju88 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

20/4/45 3
2 x Fw190 DEST (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL, these and other claims "NEURUPPIN area and A/F's at ORANIENBURG, HAGENAU, FLENSBURG, NORDHOLZ")

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn)
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann)
2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR)
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR)

4/5/45 3
2 x Do18 DES on the ground or water (CR)

As can be seen, this list differs from the one you presented. I am not saying mine is definitive, only that a clear set of agreed claims needs to be established first, especially if wanting to link claims to Luftwaffe losses. I expect TNA file AIR 37/5 should provide clear answers. Christophe Cony might have consulted this source, I don't really know.


I have one page from TNA AIR 37/5 that happens to have a Clostermann claim listed. It serves to illustrate the importance of this primary source document:

DATE: 28 Mar.
SERIAL: 362/III
GRP: 83
SQN: 56
PILOT CLAIMING: F/L Clostermann
E/A CASUALTIES: TYPE OF A/C: Fi.156
E/A CASUALTIES: CLAIMS: 1 Des
FINAL ASSESSMENT: 1 Fi.156 DES
OWN CASUALTIES: A/C: 2 Tempests Cat E
OWN CASUALTIES: PILOTS: Sgt Sheppard missing
REMARKS: A/R's RHEINE-MUNSTER-HANNOVER. E/A destroyed on the ground A.8989. 1 a/c, 3 Sqn, hit by flak pilot safe.

Cheers

Rod

Hi,

I checked the TNA 24/653 Statistics of Combats and Casualties in ADGB., Fighter Command and 2 TAF; Vol 4. For 2nd TAF the pages have the title “2nd T.A.F. Log of casualty and claims, assessments and losses”. I expect that it should contain the same information as TNA AIR 37/5. For most of the dates it has the same info as “2TAF EAL” but for the 3rd of May there are a few differences:

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES + notes made with pencil “GR” for all claims on this date
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann) - TNA 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam

2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 DES
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam


Cheers,
Peter

[Franek Grabowski]

Nick
As far we do not know, if there were any more such documents, so we cannot say if they were unique or not.
As far as I can tell, I have seen odd surviving documents like FC confirmation of 7 Dec 1944 victory dated 29 Jan 1945 (I think) for F/S Bargiełowski. Certainly there were such papers issued for each victory but I have seen only this one surviving. So, I have seen a FC document pertaining 9 Apr 1945 victory of S/L Żulikowski, asking to withdraw claim for probable and to ammend it as destroyed, because examination of gun camera film showed German pilot bailing out - with both versions of PCR included.
Another interesting set is concerning 8 Nov 1940 501 Sqn victory, it contains a ROC report on German crashes which resulted in filing the claim and crediting it to the Squadron, and 1942 amendment, attributing it to individual pilots.
I do not need to mention that some documents pertaining to blue on blue were also removed from files and just few survived.
Again, those are odd documents that survived, and there are some more, but bulk of them seemingly was lost.


Rod
I agree that this is quite confusing but we would have to assume that either Broadhurst provided false information for some reason or that Clostermann faked the document. I do not see a reason for that, hence the enigma.


Franek

[RodM]

Originally Posted by phasselgren

Hi,

I checked the TNA 24/653 Statistics of Combats and Casualties in ADGB., Fighter Command and 2 TAF; Vol 4. For 2nd TAF the pages have the title “2nd T.A.F. Log of casualty and claims, assessments and losses”. I expect that it should contain the same information as TNA AIR 37/5. For most of the dates it has the same info as “2TAF EAL” but for the 3rd of May there are a few differences:

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES + notes made with pencil “GR” for all claims on this date
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann) - TNA 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam

2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 DES
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam


Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, thanks for this. Yes, it sounds like TNA AIR 24/653 contains the same info as TNA AIR 37/5.

My original post relied on the one tabular file (TNA 37/829) I originally made notes from, and it has errors. TNA AIR 37/692 is more complete and more verbose.

In looking at what you've posted, Clostermann had three damaged claims on 3 May 1945 upgraded to destroyed.

TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.


TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 Do.24 DEST, 1 Do.24 DAM, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
2 Do.24 DEST, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DEST on the ground.

[RodM]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Nick
As far we do not know, if there were any more such documents, so we cannot say if they were unique or not.
As far as I can tell, I have seen odd surviving documents like FC confirmation of 7 Dec 1944 victory dated 29 Jan 1945 (I think) for F/S Bargiełowski. Certainly there were such papers issued for each victory but I have seen only this one surviving. So, I have seen a FC document pertaining 9 Apr 1945 victory of S/L Żulikowski, asking to withdraw claim for probable and to ammend it as destroyed, because examination of gun camera film showed German pilot bailing out - with both versions of PCR included.
Another interesting set is concerning 8 Nov 1940 501 Sqn victory, it contains a ROC report on German crashes which resulted in filing the claim and crediting it to the Squadron, and 1942 amendment, attributing it to individual pilots.
I do not need to mention that some documents pertaining to blue on blue were also removed from files and just few survived.
Again, those are odd documents that survived, and there are some more, but bulk of them seemingly was lost.


Rod
I agree that this is quite confusing but we would have to assume that either Broadhurst provided false information for some reason or that Clostermann faked the document. I do not see a reason for that, hence the enigma.


Franek

Hi Franek,

I haven't seen the document, so I cannot comment. I don't know if it was a document that Clostermann requested and Broadhurst provided, or a document that Clostermann prepared and got Broadhurst to sign.

I guess in terms of your original request, it's impossible to assess possible Luftwaffe adversaries/victims if a listed claim is bogus and never happened.

At this stage, I know this seemingly applies to the Bf109s claimed on 14 March 1945 and the Ju88 claimed on 5 April 1945. And, of course, air claims need sorted from ground claims.

Cheers

Rod

[phasselgren]

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Peter, thanks for this. Yes, it sounds like TNA AIR 24/653 contains the same info as TNA AIR 37/5.

My original post relied on the one tabular file (TNA 37/829) I originally made notes from, and it has errors. TNA AIR 37/692 is more complete and more verbose.

In looking at what you've posted, Clostermann had three damaged claims on 3 May 1945 upgraded to destroyed.

TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.


TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 Do.24 DEST, 1 Do.24 DAM, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
2 Do.24 DEST, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DEST on the ground.

Hi Rod,

I forgot to mention that the original claims were also included in AIR 24/653 and these were identical to AIR 37/692. It is therefore clear that the claims were upgraded based additional information.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Franek,

I don't know if it was a document that Clostermann requested and Broadhurst provided, or a document that Clostermann prepared and got Broadhurst to sign …

At this stage, I know this seemingly applies to the Bf109s claimed on 14 March 1945 and the Ju88 claimed on 5 April 1945.

Cheers

Rod

If he either requested or prepared that letter, was he perhaps looking to address or pre-empt questioning of his record?

As for claims, his book's (vividly depicted) episode where on patrol over Remagen he pursues an Me 262 seems to correspond to nothing in the records of 122 Wing, his Squadron or Luftwaffenkommado West.

[RodM]

Originally Posted by phasselgren

Hi Rod,

I forgot to mention that the original claims were also included in AIR 24/653 and these were identical to AIR 37/692. It is therefore clear that the claims were upgraded based additional information.

Hi Peter,

I know AIR 37/5 has the claim assessment results implicitly given, and I expect these assessments were done using analysis of the gun camera film (and possibly also results of photographic aerial reconnaissance).

[FalkeEins]

..Clostermann's 'document' perhaps?

" My two DFC citations, by Air Marshal Slessor and AOC 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me"

- "DFC 26/8/44 This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course of which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives". "Bar 28/5/45 since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all".

" 23 black crosses ..[on my Tempest..] and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else.... "

[Nick Beale]

"PREFACE
So every evening I used to write down for [my parents] the events of the day in a fat Air Ministry notebook stamped 'G.R.' … these notes—by the end of the war they filled three books—were always with me … I simply jotted down day by day the impressions, the fleetingly-caught incidents so sharply imprinted on my memory … It is precisely becasue they are true, because they were written in the first flush of action that I have made no attempt to re-touch these notes."

That true is italicised in the original, so I'd like to see what his notebooks said about the episode in The Big Show where 2TAF Tempests are called on to patrol over Remagen and Clostermann finds himself "face to face with an absolute armada of seven or eight Arado 234's escorted by thirty or so Me 262's diving down on that miserable bridge." He is then thrown into a spin when he passes too close to the explosion of an Arado's bomb and, after recovering pursues and damages an Me 262.

An exciting read but a set of events I have not been able to corroborate from the ORBS of 122 Wing or its Squadrons, let alone the Luftwaffenkommando West situation reports.