Operation GISELA + claims Oblt. Briegleb .7/NJG 2

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello to all!
I am looking to the identities of the victims of Oberleutnant Walter Briegleb during Operation GISELA, during the night of 3/4 March 1945.
He claimed a 4-engined aircraft at 00:36hs South of Waddington + another 4-engined plane at 00:56hs 40km ( 25 NM ) W of Lincoln.
Could someone who has access to Bomber Command War Lossses 1945 help me to identify the victims? ( Squadron, serial number, crew names, code of aircraft and fate of crew )
It seems that Lt Doring of 10./ NJG 3 claimed a B-17! Flying at night? I do know that several "Fortress" flew with RAF Squadrons, but in 1945? It seems a bit strange. However my main interest is to identify the victims of Oblt Briegleb.
Thank in advance for all who helped with this querie...

Adriano

[Chris Goss]

I suggest you get hold of Simon Parry's 'Intruders over Britain' which lists all kills and losses. 214 Sqn lost one Fortress and another damaged that night. The book also has accounts from Breigleib but does not specify who he got

[RodM]

Hi,

there is no Bomber Command loss that matches Briegleb's first Abschuss in both time and location. His second Abschuss was certainly 1654 HCU Lancaster PB118.

As to Döring's two Abschüsse, available evidence heavily suggests that they were two 1664 HCU Halifaxes, the first of which was only damaged.


Of the two B-17's mentioned above, one was, in all probability, the first casualty over the UK during Gisela (the successful claimant remains unknown - it certainly was not Döring), while the other, although having suffered damage over Germany earlier in the night, was not damaged during an apparent attack just after midnight. In fact, it is possible that the tracer fire seen by it's crew was actually aimed at the B-17 that was shot down.

My comments are based completely on primary source documentation (including but not limited to the Bomber Command Operational Research Section assessment of ALL the Bomber Command crash sites and 95% of the engagements that resulted in damage to aircraft). Sadly, the conclusions given in Chorley's otherwise excellent BCL Vol 6, do not appear to be completely reliable, and the 'magic bullet' theory used to justify Döring accounting for the 214 Sqdn B-17 does not stand up to closer scrutiny.


Although of no use to you at the present time, you will find a comprehensive account of Unternehmen Gisela in Drs. Theo Boiten's forthcoming book, 'The Nachtjagd War Diaries', due to be published in May 2008. The account (which, incidentally, includes details on both Briegleb and Döring on this night) both compliments and expands upon Simon Parry's wonderful book.


Cheers


RodM

[king24]

One was Lancaster PB476 from 12 Sqn RAF Wickenby, Lincolnshire. It was shot down and crashed near Alford early hours March 4th 1945.

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Hello to all!
I am looking to the identities of the victims of Oberleutnant Walter Briegleb during Operation GISELA, during the night of 3/4 March 1945.
He claimed a 4-engined aircraft at 00:36hs South of Waddington + another 4-engined plane at 00:56hs 40km ( 25 NM ) W of Lincoln.
Could someone who has access to Bomber Command War Lossses 1945 help me to identify the victims? ( Squadron, serial number, crew names, code of aircraft and fate of crew )
It seems that Lt Doring of 10./ NJG 3 claimed a B-17! Flying at night? I do know that several "Fortress" flew with RAF Squadrons, but in 1945? It seems a bit strange. However my main interest is to identify the victims of Oblt Briegleb.
Thank in advance for all who helped with this querie...

Adriano

fortress 111 ..214 sqn, HB815..j
f/o Bennet
time 1.05 AM Aera DISFORTH.
some RAF units did op fortresss at night to distruped german comunications.
Gary

[RodM]

Hi Gary,

"time 1.05 AM Aera DISFORTH"

I'm sorry, but this is 100% incorrect. The Fortress crashed on the Oulton airfield boundry just after midnight...

Hi King24,

the crash at Alford, near the coast, was at 00.29 hrs, and some distance away from Waddington. Briegleb has explicitly stated in the past that after crossing the coast into Lincolnshire his crew and himself witnessed the shooting down of a aircraft by another pilot of NJG2 prior to reaching the Waddington area and engaging in combat.

Cheers

Rod

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Gary,

"time 1.05 AM Aera DISFORTH"

I'm sorry, but this is 100% incorrect. The Fortress crashed on the Oulton airfield boundry just after midnight...

Cheers

Rod

Hi.ROD .. yes german time 1 hour in front.
GARY

[Erich]

Rod

may I ask how many pages cover the U. Gisela raid in Dr. Boitens book ?

thank you and also for putting some of the claims in order via this thread

E ~

[RodM]

Hi Gary,

"Hi.ROD .. yes german time 1 hour in front.
GARY"

...no, at that particular period in 1945, both British time and German time were exactly the same....

Hi Erich,

just the Gisela text alone is 11.5 A4 pages - bearing in mind that most of the narrative is very concise and to the point. It is, however, very detailed, and covers every Bomber Command aircraft shot down and every Bomber Command aircraft attacked.

Cheers

Rod

[Erich]

thanks Rod ! am looking quite forward to the book and your role play in the 1945 section(s) especially.

E ~