Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities

[Ruy Horta]

Just bought Christer Bergström's (latest?) publication.

Barbarossa - The Air Battle: July-December 1941
Published by Midland Counties*

It appears to be a worthy addition to Black Cross/Red Star vol.1

As I was just glancing, my attention was caught by an essay in chapter 17, called Atrocities and Ideology on the Eastern Front. Although an interesting piece of text, I am questioning the use of one source.

Perhaps it is only a matter of time before we accept the Internet as a primary source, but I am old fashioned when it comes to more critical subjects.

www.flieger-lynchmorde.de is used as the (single) source for "a recent study" which claims that it has found "314" cases of Allied airmen lynched after bailing out over Germany.

Some of the cases there read like:
12.12.1944 Ermordung eines amerikanischen Fliegers in einem nichtgenannten Ort

Very few of the cases are matched the names of their victims. All of the cases are "Ermordung" or murder. Being limited in information, it is impossible to deduct if there might have been cases of resisting capture etc.

Although it is very likely that many Allied Airmen were lynched or murdered, you need to present figures with hard facts, based on well documented cases.

Just my 2 c.

*which should put to rest some of the fears of them not being able to keeping up a high standard.

[Franek Grabowski]

Ruy, I think the matter is not with the internet itself, as you can find a lot of crap on paper as well. The one must simply make an analysis of available sources, compare them if they do not repeat the same information and then use it.

[Ruy Horta]

But don't you agree that once you choose to quote numbers, you need to have either a (relatively) reliable source, or multiple (independent) sources.

I question the use of the Internet as a single source when it comes to more sensitive subject like this one.

IMHO.

[John Vasco]

The simple legal tenet applies to all research: "He who asserts must prove".

[hihotte]

Holá gentlemen,
at first, I don't know the content of Christers new book: Barbarossa-the air battle, yet. But to use -flieger-lynchmorde.de- as a source is IMHO legal. The creators of this page have the guts to touch a "hot potatoe" in post war Germanys public opinion. An equal documentation on german tv lead to a common uproar of indignation in Germany. Consequently the custodians of local archives refused or blocked any informations of incidents that happened in their regions. But interviewing of survived persons who whitnessed those incidents is also a legal part of research.
I personally read Christers books with critical distance but I think they have a qualified space in Air War History Documentations and so has the -flieger-lynchmorde webpage.
Cheers
Horst Schmidt

[Laurent Rizzotti]

This website is a useful research tool, listing all known cases with sources (so way above Web standard) but don't claim AFAIK to list them all, or to avoid duplicate (especially between the dated cases and those for which only the month is known). One thing it is lacking IMOO is the reference to the post-war process that often took place.

So a reference to it should be OK, as it is IMOO serious research, but the final number should be considered as an "order of idea". By the way, the figure may be high but it was less than 1% of the total number of POW. German airmen executed in France in 1940 were about the same ratio. And POW killing was far superior in ground battle...

By the way, the fliegermorde list is not complete. I recently found in French archives the case of a French Halifax airman that was very probably executed (beaten hard then brought from jail into a wood and "killed during an escape attempt") in fall 1944. It doesn't seem to be listed.

As for Allied airmen killed while resisting capture in Germany, I think the number was probably low.

[RT]

As for Allied airmen killed while resisting capture in Germany, I think the number was probably low


It seems natural for a combattant to escape capture, I always wonder if the airmen don't act differently, because not same substract, I mean they combatting in the air on earth they are no more combattants...
Interesting is that in the movie .
" Is it necessary to save Ryan? yes for the nb of entries"
I numbered at least 67 german prisoners executed, the reason is that the G.Is don't understand the german...Seems not cause trouble to anyone

rémi

[Franek Grabowski]

Of course the site is way to be complete. It also does not provide any legal background ie. orders concerning treatment of Allied airmen. Nonetheless, I do not think it is a bad site nor that it should not be referred to.
What is bothering is perhaps a risk of plagiarism but it is certainly surprising what the hell have war crimes in Germany to the airwar in the East and atrocities there committed by both sides?

[hihotte]

Holá Franek, do you know the content of chapter 17 of Christers "Barbarossa - the Air Battle"? The content will probably give you the answer.
Cheers
Horst Schmidt

[Franek Grabowski]

Horst
No, I do not, having bad experience with the author I have decided not to buy any of his books anymore - he is not credible researcher for me. Regarding the chapter, Ruy has noted the website is the only source for it. Conclusion is obvious.