ME 109g-6 u4 arnaments?

[henchman]

Just have question about the g6 u4 model. Was it never armed with 20mm cannon pods under the wing or was it called r6 then? Was this not standard equipment was it seldom used?

Here is the manual for this plane

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techre.../bf109g6u4.pdf

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I am not an expert on this, but according to Harald Vogt in his work "Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K Field Conversion Kits (Rustsätze)" this would not lead to the aircraft being noted as anything but Bf 109 G-6/U4. I have found his work somewhat confusing to read and feel that this might have something to do with the translation?

The Rustsätze or field conversion kits could be, as given by the name, mounted in the field, and also taken off an aircraft. The G-6 had a Rüstsatz VI which was the MG 151/20's in underwing gondolas as an option, but as this was not a factory installed kit it would not show up on the designation (in contrast to Umbausätze, factory mounted conversions, and engine conversions AS, MW50 etc).

Not an easy field, and my first instinct was in fact to write this up as a Bf 109G-6/U4/R6 however wrong that might be!

Also, I have looked at Prien/Rodeike and Sommerau's books, and these three references do not agree at all

Sommerau tends to use the FULL 'designations' (for example G6/R6 for a plain Bf 109G-6 with two underwing 151/20's, but G6/U4/R5! for an aircraft with Mk 108 cannon and underwing 151/20 gondolas (I do not understand why Sommerau states that the Rustsatz was R6 on a G6 and R5 on a G6/U4...), while Vogt and Prien/Rodeike tends towards the same conclusion, that an addition of a Rustsatz did not change the designation of the aircraft....

Have looked at the designations used on some 1944 aircraft I have loss records for, and these turn up as Bf 109 G6 U4 (as written in the original documents) or Bf 109 G6 U4 AS but have yet to see an R6 designation on one of these

Prien is online here, and I guess he could add to this discussion, and I also believe Sommerau is somewhere around in cyberspace.

Would be interesting to see what turns out in this discussion, maybe a joint effort will get us the final words on this topic

I think I will stick with Bf 109G6/U4 with field conversion kit VI

Regards,
Andreas B

[henchman]

Yeah it would be interesting to get a conclusion in this matter. I have been told that if a 109G-6 u4 was armed with these kits it was called u4/r6. What does themanual say about this matter, and what designation was used during the war?

http://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=g6u4ki3.png

[henchman]

Did the fitting of mg 151/20 pods severly hamper the G6 ability to peform in the air? Was it used often or only in rare occasions when intercepting large bombers. The G6 also had the ability to carry bombs but was this
rarely seen due to Germanys inability to control the air?

[Kutscha]

I have seen that the gondolas reduced speed by ~10kph. I find this hard to believe as the bomb racks on the P-51 reduced its speed by much more.

Have the actual numbers someplace.

[yogybär]

That /U4 is used in different places for different things. "/U" is for "Umbau" (only in factory)

The most important from my point of view is that in the danish website www.ww2.dk and the OoB's there.

In these tables, I am 100% sure that the /U4 means the central MK108.
I.e. II/JG52 gets these "109G-6/U4" in November 1944, which fits very good to the date given in Lipfert's diary. Also, Lipfert mentions one JG77 Gruppe which had this gun before. This can also be verified on the website.

The MG151/20 gondolas are definitely called "/R6" for Rüstsatz (changeable in field)

[Graham Boak]

I've seen 15kph quoted as a speed penalty. Although that seems a bit low, I don't think the comparison with the P-51's tanks is close, because the tanks are considerably larger, bluffer, and not ideally mounted.

However, the penalty was less in performance terms - although climb rate did suffer because of the drag and the weight - than in handling. Having large masses outboard on the wing adds considerable inertia to aircraft movements in yaw and roll.

They were, however, carried fairly often. Whatever "fairly" may mean. The 109G was also often used as a fighter-bomber, but mainly in the East.

[henchman]

Thanks for your answers.
Interesting that it was used as a fighterbomber , i havent seen that before, what type of ordinance did it carry was it 500kg 250kg or 50kg. Was it a quick procedure to mount a rustzätze on the G6 ?Yes the 20mm gun was called R6. But i still dont think that the lw changed the name of the aircraft (G-6/U4 when these were fitted on?

[yogybär]

henchman, for your understanding:
Bf190G-6 = 2x13mm + 1x20mm weapons
Bf109G-6/U4 = 2x13mm + 1x30mm weapons

as it is possible to read in the pdf (page 7 & 8), it was possible to load 1x250kg bomb or 4x50kg... or the 300l tank.
Foreach of these 3 alternative external loadouts, a different Rüstsatz was needed. The same is valid for the gondolas.

Rüstsätze could be mounted ad removed within a short time. From what I read about them, it was ca.1 hour, maybe 2 for the gondolas.

[henchman]

Tx for answer yogibär

I know that the u4 stands for the mk 108 kanone no doubt about it. What i am uncertain of is if the U4 when fitted with for example the R6 rust, was called G-6/U4/R6. Some people claim that it was called designated so but no LW ob i have seen used that designation.