IVBIA-45 VVS fighter pilots manual

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Evgeny,

GL for the Army. After you return, my Hungarian Me 210 material will be available already

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thank You Csaba

As promissed:

I-15, I-15bis, I-153, I-16.

[Franek Grabowski]

Evgenij
You are mixing various subjects, this does not make us any closer.
The facts are simple and self explainable. Soviet Union attacked Poland jointly and jointly worked on repressions on Polish population - see eg. well known Gestapo-NKVD conference at Zakopane. This was already WWII, and despite Soviet propaganda's efforts Soviet Union participated in it from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Franek. You really think that those 50 years was worse than nazi occupation during 5 years?

It was different just as was different German occupation of Poland and France. Mind you that Soviets had much easier task thanks to Germans, who did all the dirty job before.

I am PROUD that my both granfathers fought FOR THEYR SOVIET Motherland.

That is entirely your problem.

SOVIET because it was the only choise. The other choise was to trait and go to serve to germans, as Vlasov. All traitors were shot, without any judge. And I SURE it was 100% right.

We have here your opinions. OK, but tell me whom Vlasov betrayed? And should we follow this logic to all the people in Germany (not that many) who in various ways actively opposed Hitler?

What You propose to our soldiers - to give up? Do You really understand what result would be?

Really, I do not find interesting spending time on 'what ifs'.

Or You forgot what germans did in Poland in 1939-44?

No, but what does it have to the original problem?

Does SOVIETS made Konzlags?

Well, yes! They are known as Gulags, and predecessed KLs for several years.

After that words I look forward for Your phrase – “Soviets were unhumen”… It may be thing that You dot like and never agree, but Soviets were those who faced the strongest army in Europe and destroyed it, finishing the war in Berlin.

Mind you, the same army was opposed in Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg, Yugoslavia, Greece, etc. Later, German army was busy fighting in North Africa, then Italy and then France, still seeing no Red Army. At the same time, since 1940 Luftwaffe was continuously engaged in the air, and Kriegsmarine on the sea. Soviets were not seen there either. Please note, that there was also a war against Italy and Japan, the latter taking a lot of resources. Still, Britain and USA managed to send deliveries of just everything starting from aircraft and tanks, getting through cars and lorries, ending on uniforms, fabrics, leather, alluminium or spam (pork). Someone once calculated, that if Poland had received a single convoy like the one the SU did, we could defeat Germany single-handedly.
Do you dare to say the Soviet Union won the war alone?!

My grangrandfather went in army in middle 1942, and was encircled 3 times untill he reached Stalingrad in august 1942. When he moved through german held territory, he found a village. This I remember when he told me in 1995, just before he passed away. He sayd: there were ~50 houses, most of them in flames, but no even 1 alive human. “There were old men, looking like meat loaf because they were kicked by boots to death. Raped women without cloth. There I saw a first time "butterbroads". What is it, You ask? Imagine 2 children, lie one over second, face to face. German soldier shoot in the head from rifle and 1 bullet killes two.”

The war is terrible, so what? I can provide you several other such accounts. Or how about women 'liberated' from KL and raped by Soviet soldiers? This is not a gossip but from a document.

“We have no choise. Or live with communism, or die as german slave. I don’t care about Party, but I see burned house of my family”. Note that his village lost 4/5 of all people, died from hunger in Golodomor in mid 30-th, including his mother. People boiled GRASS and SHOES SKIN to eat. Kommisars took all grain and almost all food from them.

Still, what is your point?

It was the fact of our history, and we cant change it now.

Indeed, but at least we can tell who was responsible, cannot we?

How many Polish, Finns, Romanians were killed or suffered by Communists agression? You may know it better than me. Was ot totally of 1/10, 1/100 of all who suffered from Communism?

Do not forget that for the Poles count is even higher, as plenty of them were not allowed to emigrate from the SU. Many fell to the great hunger, many died in Stalinist cleansings.

But Do YOU know, how many MILLIONS of citizens were killed during Civil War in 20th?

Plenty, as well as during hungers, etc. I still do not see your point.

Do You know how many MILLIONS payed their life for stupidity of Stalins gemerals in WW II? 20 millins? 30 millions? 40 millions? We will never know. Belorussia had 8 millons of population before the war. 2 millions were alive after… Each 4th survived of whole country.

Mind you that several made for Poland being Polish. Statistic of WWII losses is a big lie.

Beside HUMAN losses, communism made many, many other strikts. Cultural. Moral. Science. All suffered heavy.

I agree, but what is the point?

But PLEASE – LET US, EX-SOVIETS, EX-USSRIANS, JUDGE THE STALINS REGIME, THE COMMUNISM. WE are those who suffered the hardest price. All eastern Europe didnt saw even 1/100 of all that kommunism did.

Nope. We suffered it as well. The fact that it was shorter does not make it any better. Otherwise you still have problems freeing of the past.

Look on Nazi regime. I even don’t dare to score the crimes. But I have no RIGHTS to judge it. Germans have it the only.

Nope, it was done at Nuremberg, and I doubt if anybody would have been hanged if it was left to the Germans.

Fascism in Italy. The most suffered were ITALIANS, not all who were around. Let ONLY Italians judge the Mussolini.

I would not say that Italians suffered to Mussolini. Still, plenty of them are quite fond of it.

Franko…
Ustaska…

?

I even don’t speak about Asia. I even cant imagine WHAT really Japaneese did with Chineese…

They had their Nuremberg as well.

Yes, shit happened, but that was hard time of totalitarism for whole Europe and not only theyr countryes suffered. NOWDAY we cant change something with it.

Something to be done is to rule out the people who are responsible. Nobody hanged Gorbatchov because of his communistic activities. People from the communistic establishment are still ruling several countries including Russia. Do you find it comfortable?

You would better judge Pilsudsky, ok? You better read about war in 1920. You will find about Polish invasion and occupation of Western Ukraina and Belorussia.

Have a good look at any map from before the partitioning of Poland and tell me who was occupying what. Then I may assure you that you will find no other person in modern Polish history getting so much critique, justified or not, as Piłsudski.

And the last - all Soviet-Polish wars were VENGENCE for 1612, You mist know it.

No, it is a veangence since Polish Kain killed Russian Abel. Do not be ridiculous.

You would better think about sorry for that, because POLISH was going to enslave and destroy WHOLE nation. Better go and think about it.

Better go and think about the fact that the only White Russians and Ukrainians speaking their tongues live or lived in Poland. Those who were in the SU speak Russian. Mind you who destroyed nations.

Bottom line for me. We have enoght nazi in goverments of Ukraina, Georgia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia nowdays, who hail traitiors as a heroes.

Whom they betrayed? Following your logic we should hang all the Polish soldiers who betrayed General Gouvernment. This should be strictly followed by hanging all the Free French and other nations who fought against Germany.
As I said, I do not see your point!

[Jukka Juutinen]

"Free French" should have indeed been hung. And Franek, That Nuremberg is just a sorry example of political joke trial.

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

Gentlemen, can we please keep this thread on aviation matters ? It began about a technical book but I am responsible initially for diverting it off course. My apologies, especially to the moderators.

Evgeny.

The combined Il-2 figures for the VVS and Fleet Air Forces are huge of course, but only apply to combat and operational losses. I presume many thousands more Shturmoviks were lost in training accidents, non-operational losses, write-offs through battle damage, etc. ? Likewise perhaps thousands more Il-2 pilots and gunners were killed or injured ?

Regards,

Martin.

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Martin Gleeson

The combined Il-2 figures for the VVS and Fleet Air Forces are huge of course, but only apply to combat and operational losses. I presume many thousands more Shturmoviks were lost in training accidents, non-operational losses, write-offs through battle damage, etc. ? Likewise perhaps thousands more Il-2 pilots and gunners were killed or injured ?

Regards,

Martin.

I hope this can be of help to you :

Actually, most "non combat losses" were simply old and weared airplanes. There were of course accidents but they accounted for a limited part of losses. I've got no specific figures about Shturmovik units but here are a few figures which may interest you.
Overall some 20400 personnel of soviet air forces were lost in combat in 1943-1944-1945, and about 4400 were listed as non combat losses, which includes not only accidents but also death from illness.
Additionnally, in the same time, about 5600 men were evacuated to hospitals because of injuries (no distinction between combat and non combat here) and 18500 were evacuated to hospitals because of illness or frozen parts.

On average in the WWII soviet armed forces 7.5 % of hositalized wounded servicemen died, and 3.5 % of hospitalized ill servicemen. Servicemen deceased in hospitals are included in the overall death tolls, so that a limited percentage of losses are counted twice.

Regards,

Nico.

P.S. : I also appreciate the information you've shared with us on this forum, Evgeny. Thanks for that and good luck for your time in the army.

[kalender1973]

Hi Yevgeny,

thanks for the Maslow's book. And I hope you come back soon to us. Do you already know, where you will deploy?

Best regards and best wishes !

P.S. Let you not Mr. Grabowski to provoke you, it is only his intension. And if you reply, he has free stage here.

[Ruy Horta]

There is a time and place for everything.

IMHO Evgeny has a right to be proud.

Whatever the circumstances up to 1939 and the events of the cold war, the Soviets paid the right to be proud in blood, sweat and tears (to steal a quote).

Evgeny wants to share some interesting (rare) data. This should not be spoiled by an unnecessary discussion about right and wrongs. There is such a thing as kicking a dead horse. Do we need a reminder every now and then that there are more sides to a story? Yes, I think so. But how we bring a message is just as important as the content.

Thanks again Evgeny for sharing your material with the community and good luck in the army!

We'll be waiting for you to share some stories afterwards

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thx all, gents.

Igor - 17 june I will going to Saint-Petersburg, to ... I dont know the english word - Учебка Regiment where soldiers study to have military speciality or to have sergeant rank and serve later as sergeant.

After 3 month there, after I will have a military oath, I will be transferred to regiment. I dont know where exactly, but know it will be Army (I mean not NAVY, no special forces, not VVS, not rockets - just could be infantry, tanks or engineering forces).

Ruy - I have something to answer to Franek, but will not do it. It is offtopic, and with his hatred to communism it will be useless spoil of my time. Also, I see this forum have such feature as "Ignore"

I would go now to write more in May-June 43 thread better.

Report of Staff of Airforces of Bryansk Front, to Staff of VVS about actions of Front airforces during august - december 1941 (Document date - 31 december 1941). Top secret (WAS secret, now it is not - needed time gone ). Microsoft Word format, in Russian (but I hope it could be translated easily with even Online Translators). Interesting document about VVS and Luftaffe actions during early stages of Battle of Moskow. It contains some mistakes in suggestions concerning Luftwaffe (for example He-113 fighters spotted on front - in fact Bf109F), but overall it will be usefull for researchers I hope.

[Martin Gleeson]

Nico,

Thanks for the extra information concerning VVS aircrew losses. It is all very interesting and helps us obtain a clearer picture of the air war on the Eastern Front.

Evgeny,

Best of luck again in the Army. I was in the infantry myself for a few years, and the experience did'nt kill me !

Regards to all,

Martin.