August Lambert's Vic Tally....

[NickM]

Guys:

Just a couple of question RE: August Lambert's air-to-air victory score:

Has anyone been able to compare his scoring spree over the Crimea in Spring 1944 to Russian/USSR loss tallies?

also

Does anyone have a list of his total vics?

Thanks in advance;

nickm

[Rob Romero]

Nick,

he's reputed to have been an exagerator.

Rob Romero

[yogybär]

the list mentioned by Nick would be very interesting anyway...

[Jim P.]

Come on. This 'exagerator' krap, is just that, krap. EVERYBODY, British, US, German and whoever, overclaimed. That's a fact. Get over it. Trying to assign motive to a particular individual's claims 70 years after the fact is krap. These are CLAIMS - the fact that they ended up being credited is the 'problem'. In hindsight, with the records available from all sides, its easy for any of us to criticize and try to make somebody out to be a bad guy. Thing is we aren't playing a video game where a computer tells us we scored a kill. All these guys, from all sides, were fighting in combat in 3-dimensional space with enemy aircraft all around. If you saw smoke or pieces coming from your target, you made a claim. If you tried to follow your victim into the ground, generally you died. (One of the more well-known examples of this is with Rall in home defense. He lived, but lost a thumb.) Get over it. Were there documented cases of pilots intentionally or otherwise overclaiming? Certainly. Think Flying Tigers - $500 a pop was a lot money back then, 300 vs. 100 documented losses - think a schwarm from 4./JG 27 in North Africa caught in the act - think BoB officialdom knowing that RAF Fighter Command was overclaiming x 3 per known losses, let stand for morale purposes. The Japanese thought they had sunk the carrier Enterprise 4-5 times. They hit the thing, saw the explosions and the smoke, but if they'd tried to stuck around to actually watch it sink, who would have lived to tell the whole story? The bottom line is, we're here with the benefit of having records from all sides to check the veracity of everybody's claims, which for the most part don't always match up. Its way too easy for us, 70+ years after the fact, to be critical and try to ascribe motives to actions for a combat environment that we can't really begin to fathom.

[John Beaman]

Well said, Jim!

I recall, about 20+ years ago, some people said they "proved" that Marseille "only" shot down 12 or 13 of the 17 he claimed in one day. Well, that's still a hell of an accomplishment!

Moreover, almost all AFs did not count as losses an aircraft that crashlanded back at base or had extensive damage needing lengthy repairs. Frankly, I think that is as good as a loss as it is "lost" for operational purposes for some time.

BTW, the record for overclaiming has to be the 8th AAF Bomber Command crediting all those air gunner kills. I think the overclaiming was 12-13 to 1? Command knew this but let it go for "morale" purposes. Now, however, in everyone's mind that made a claim, they are "real". Then there's the claims by General Kenny in the 5th AAF.............

[Nokose]

I've read in Russian accounts that they didn't consider a forced landing were the plane was recovered as a loss on their records.

[Nick Beale]

I think it was Mike Spick who put forward the idea that almost all fighter claims represented a situation where a pilot had gained the upper hand in combat, to the extent of attaining a firing position.

If you accept that, there was usually a "victory" to go with a claim but of course we aren't talking about a competitive sport but a war, where the purpose was to destroy the opposing force.

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, I think all the problem is with a widespread myth of extraordinary accuracy of German claims. Actually, they overclaimed as the other did, sometimes more, sometimes less. One important detail is, that we do not have detailed reports on individual combats, just like in mentioned Marseille's case, where we know total number of claims, but no other details. Therefore I would rather tend to list totals for units, rather than discuss individual scores, which are unverifiable.
By the way, in regard of damaged aircraft - it is always mess, regardless of air force.