Unidentified He111 insignia on two force-landed a/c Western Campaign

[ChrisS]

Hi Larry

The problem of this emblem has vexed others on our 'sister' site:

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=6327

Goran believes it could be 11./KG. 54.

Cheers

Chris

[Larry Hickey]

ChrisS,

The problem with 11./KG54 is that there was no such unit operating during the French Campaign of May-June, 1940, which is the very likely date of my photos. Since this appears to have been used on a/c of both a 1. and 3. Staffel, it appears likely to be a Gruppe rather than a Staffel emblem. Sooooo....

Regards,

[F19Gladiator]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

ChrisS,

The problem with 11./KG54 is that there was no such unit operating during the French Campaign of May-June, 1940, which is the very likely date of my photos. Since this appears to have been used on a/c of both a 1. and 3. Staffel, it appears likely to be a Gruppe rather than a Staffel emblem. Sooooo....

Regards,

Hello Larry,
Sorry, but I did not notice that your post was running here when I posted at LEMB.

The reference to 11./KG 54 pointed out by Chris was in relation to a similar but not identical emblem which you can find in the thread at LEMB.

Studying the photos I have seen, I get the impression that the He 111 discussed at LEMB based on a couple of shots of the same aircraft had the aircraft code painted over in a similar manner as with aircraft used in the night attacks on Britain.
I have browsed "Die Geschichte des Lehrgeschwaders 1 Band 1" by Peter Taghon and "The Battle Over France Then And Now" by Peter D. Cornwell" since reading your post, but not yet found an aircraft with this emblem or a He 111 camouflage with codes painted over. The photo was perhaps taken after the BoF?

Trying to read the text under the photo you've posted but I have not yet been able to deschiffre all of it. There might be both the name of the pilot (First word) and the location at the end of the sentence. If it was during the BoF it might be traceable via Cornwell's book?

Earlier browsing for images of He 111s with this emblem, however, one image caught my attention. Captioned as being from KG 4 it features what can perhaps be the same emblem but a bit difficult to make out.
Source "The Luftwaffe In Camera 1939-1942", Alfred Price, 1997, Sutton Publishing Ltd.





It can be a case of seeing what one would like like to see due to the low resolution, but I have tried to mark where the emblem with wings and the white eye on the bomb might be on one of the scans.
Could be worth looking at KG 4 a bit closer perhaps.

Larry, I would appreciate if you could share the other images leeding to the conclusion that more than one Staffel used this emblem, via PM if you prefer.

Best regards,
Goran

[robert]

Hi Goran,

this emblem was painted on at least three different He 111s and all photos were most likely taken in 1940. So it`s not possible that they belonged to 11./KG54.

Regards

Robert

[F19Gladiator]

Very possible they were taken in 1940 and seen on three different aircraft Robert but then I am also interested in the sources, i.e. the photos and documents in particular.
Night missions over Britain were flown by He 111s based in France in 1940. I'm interested in understanding the time period. What links the photos specifically to the BoF period, excluding the time later in 1940?

The vegetation on the photo I am referring to on my post on LEMB does not enable a firm conclusion on May/June as it could also fit a photo taken later, after the BoF.

The camouflage, or rather painted over unit codes, might perhaps indicate a later date than BoF. How many other photos of He 111s with painted over fuselage codes from BoF do you find Robert? If so what units can those be linked to in order to narrow down the search for the unit in this case?

What camouflage and other specifics do the other two aircraft, featuring the same emblem as discussed, reveal?

I've commented on the 11./KG 54 matter earlier. That's merely an example of bombs figuring in similar emblems.

I am posting the photo from ebay found here: http://cgi.ebay.de/085-Orig-Foto-Ger...d=p3911.c0.m14

As can be seen the fuselage has received a layer of dark paint covering the code and fuselage up to just beneneath the spine but not the BK.


I have to underline that I am not arguing for a specific answer, Unit, time period, as I am collecting more information as well as trying to "read" the signs of what little information I have yet.

Cheers
Goran

[robert]

Hi,

on the photos, which you posted in this thread, I`m seeing nor bomb nor devil. Sorry.

Regards

Robert

[F19Gladiator]

Originally Posted by robert

Hi,

on the photos, which you posted in this thread, I`m seeing nor bomb nor devil. Sorry.

Regards

Robert

Thanks Robert,

In the post #15 above, after editing and entering the photo from ebay.de of the bellied in He 111, you must be able to see the emblem with bomb, wings and the eye?

I have never introduced the devil as part of the emblem discussed. See emblem #863 in Ketley & Rolfe. Also posted by Larry. This is the emblem discussed.
You are perhaps referring to the photo captioned as a KG 4 aircraft?

Do you have any answer on my other questions?

Br
Goran

[robert]

Hi,

of course I didn`t refer to this photo. The original print of above photo reveals that this plane has a full fuselage code and was flown most likely by the 3./LG1.
It probably crash-landed on the 10.05.40.
Three other He-111 with the same emblem have a strange-painted propellers and most probably belonged to 1./LG1 (one of them came down in the vicinity of Dunkirk).
This "devil riding a bomb" emblem is very similar to emblem introduced by 3./KG1 especially when the full view of emblem is blocked.

Regards

Robert

[F19Gladiator]

Originally Posted by robert

Hi,

of course I didn`t refer to this photo. The original print of above photo reveals that this plane has a full fuselage code and was flown most likely by the 3./LG1.
It probably crash-landed on the 10.05.40.
Three other He-111 with the same emblem have a strange-painted propellers and most probably belonged to 1./LG1 (one of them came down in the vicinity of Dunkirk).
This "devil riding a bomb" emblem is very similar to emblem introduced by 3./KG1 especially when the full view of emblem is blocked.

Regards

Robert

Thank you very much for replying Robert!

The only a/c I can find matching your info about a 3./LG 1 He 111 crash-landed on 10.05.1940 is L1+EL with FF Fw. Werner Hartmann, which crashed near Néchin east of Lille after being shot down by Hurricanes of No. 607 Sq.
Source: Cornwell P.214 and Taghon p.439. (see earlier in thread about references)

Crew captured, BS Saas KIA and FF being wounded. Aircraft was a write-off. The circumstances does not seem to match the photos I have seen, unless the a/c was photographed after recapture and providing no souvenirs had been taken!

As you seem to be confident about the Heinkel (post #15) carrying a LG 1 code being clearly visible on an original, can you share a visual? Seing is believeing, particularly in this case as the posted photos do not give away even a hint regarding the unit code!

Regarding the other two He 111s with the same emblem you mention, can you give advice on photo sources or are these hidden in private archives?

Cheers
Goran

[robert]

Hi,

all photos were on E-Bay.
On one of original prints (taken from other side) you can see the bullet`s holes in fuselage indicating that this bomber was hit in fighter attack.

Regards

Robert