Polish Mustang PK-E, 315 Sqd

[RSwank]

Bergen,
I have not seen ORB online for 86 or 547 Squadrons (which is not to say they are not online, just that I have not found them). However, if you read the ORB links for the 315 squadron given by Peter S you can see that when CIUNDZIEWICKI was lost he was part of the two plane PATROL along the coast of Norway. It looks like there were four such two plane Patrols on that day, probably each along a different 20 mile stretch of coast, mainly, (I suspect) looking for activity to be reported back to Coastal Command. When the fighters were used to ESCORT strike forces (often Beaufighters) the description used is "ESCORT", see for example activity on 1944-11-15. I am beginning to think the statement about "Escorting Liberators" on 10 Nov may not be correct. There may have been Liberators flying that day, but perhaps on different missions, antisubmarine sweeps or the like.

[Peter S]

Originally Posted by RSwank

I am beginning to think the statement about "Escorting Liberators" on 10 Nov may not be correct. There may have been Liberators flying that day, but perhaps on different missions, antisubmarine sweeps or the like.

ORB states clearly:

"2 Mustangs IIIs of this squadron took off on patrol off the coast of NORWAY (20 miles) according to plan to protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft, according to plan."

[Bergen]

Originally Posted by Peter S

Definitely 10 November.

" H (PK-H) F/O G.(Gwido) Swistun 13.25 - 17.20
E (PK-E) F/S A. (Antoni) Ciundziewicki 13.25-16.00

2 Mustangs IIIs of this squadron took off on patrol off the coast of NORWAY (20 miles) according to plan to protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft, according to plan. At about 15.50 hours flying a Southerly course F/S CIUNDZIEWICKI, flying on the port side, spotted (which at first he thought was a U.boat, in position 60°.020N - 05°12E) and went to investigate, but identified same as a tug towing a barge, steering in a Westerly direction. He attacked and when pulling out, moderate, heavy ACK,ACK was experienced from position 60°020N - 05°17E. Shortly afterwards intense light flak was experienced from position 60°00N -05°05E. Against the Section Leader's orders this gun position was attacked by the above mentioned pilot and when pulling out he reported to his Section Leader that he had been hit. The Section Leader noticed the pilot's aircraft in flames and ordered him to bale out or take a Westerly course. No reply was received and shortly afterwards the plane was seen crashing in flames in approx. position 60°00N - 05°00E. No parachute was observed. Approx. time 16.00 hours . WEATHER as above."

So if I understand this right, this is the witnessaccount reported by F/S Swistun and is to be found in the ORB of 315 Sqd ?

Further there would be of great interest to excact find out what the mission was. Were where those Liberators going, what mission or target did they have ?

Any personal information about Antoni Ciundziewicki ?
Number of sorties, victories etc
Was he married ?, any living relatives ?

Thanks again
Bergen

[SteveB]

Hi Peter and other posters

I realise that this intervention may not be entirely helpful but it seems to me that it would be really helpful if somebody could find out which Liberator sqn was involved and what is the record of their operations for that day. I have been unsure about the events as recorded in 315Sqn ORB since the last time this incident appeared on one of the forums.

On 10Nov44 315Sqn flew four overlapping patrols each of two a/c and taking off at 55/50 minute intervals. The first was 1140-1540; the second 1235-1625; the third 1325-1720 and the fourth 1415-1755. So, for whatever it is worth, the first patrol had not returned before the last patrol took off.

It seems to me that it is likely that the Liberators were airborne for all of this period from 1140-1755. In the 315Sqn ORB all four reports describe the task, in different levels of detail, as "protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft".

There are at least two things I don't understand. I am not well-versed in Coastal Command operations, but I don't think I have ever been aware of CC a/c apparently operating in such a large formation? It would have produced one hell of a radar response. Where I have looked at CC sqn ORBs then usually they record just single a/c operating on any patrol. If the (slower) Liberators were operating at such a low altitude and so close to the Norwegian coast why was there an escort of only two a/c when usually at least 8 and often 12 a/c would be put up to escort Beaufighters or Mosquitos? If JG5 has responded how would two a/c protect seven Liberators?

Steve

[RSwank]

SteveB,
Good points. I was looking at the staggered takeoffs and wondering what that meant. I wonder if we are misreading some of the terms. I don't know what seven Liberators flying together at 1000 ft, 20 miles off the coast of Norway would be doing, but maybe a single Liberator equipped with ASV radar is searching for surface shipping. Maybe there was more than one Liberator, but each had a separate search/patrol area. Maybe they/it orbited in a set area over a period of hours, so the escort fighters would replace each other. I wonder if 1000 feet up and 20 miles off the coast is just the right altitude to be able to scan "up to the coast" but not get interference from the coast itself. Questions... Questions....

[Bergen]

Originally Posted by RSwank

Bergen,
I have not seen ORB online for 86 or 547 Squadrons (which is not to say they are not online, just that I have not found them). However, if you read the ORB links for the 315 squadron given by Peter S you can see that when CIUNDZIEWICKI was lost he was part of the two plane PATROL along the coast of Norway. It looks like there were four such two plane Patrols on that day, probably each along a different 20 mile stretch of coast, mainly, (I suspect) looking for activity to be reported back to Coastal Command. When the fighters were used to ESCORT strike forces (often Beaufighters) the description used is "ESCORT", see for example activity on 1944-11-15. I am beginning to think the statement about "Escorting Liberators" on 10 Nov may not be correct. There may have been Liberators flying that day, but perhaps on different missions, antisubmarine sweeps or the like.

Did the 86 or 547 Sqd´s ever conduct antisubmarine sorties ?
Were they fittet with any Leighlights, depthcharges etc ?

Bergen

[Peter S]

Originally Posted by Bergen

So if I understand this right, this is the witnessaccount reported by F/S Swistun and is to be found in the ORB of 315 Sqd ?


Any personal information about Antoni Ciundziewicki ?
Number of sorties, victories etc
Was he married ?, any living relatives ?

F/O Swistun. Yes, I would say so. No one else would report what was said over the radio.

Not a lot, I’m afraid.
794407
Born 15.11.1915. After Polish Campaign in Soviet captivity. Arrived in UK on 14.10.1941.
25(P)EFTS, 16(P)SFTS
11 AGS
Sept.1943 sent to 61 OTU
Jan 1944 posted to 315 “City of Deblin” Squadron

58 operational sorties (111 hours)
¾ V1 (1/2 + ¼) on 22.7.1944
Decorated with Cross of Valour with Bar

I never came across his family.

[Peter S]

Originally Posted by Bergen

and is to be found in the ORB of 315 Sqd ?

Yes

[Bergen]

Originally Posted by Peter S

F/O Swistun. Yes, I would say so. No one else would report what was said over the radio.

Not a lot, I’m afraid.
794407
Born 15.11.1915. After Polish Campaign in Soviet captivity. Arrived in UK on 14.10.1941.
25(P)EFTS, 16(P)SFTS
11 AGS
Sept.1943 sent to 61 OTU
Jan 1944 posted to 315 “City of Deblin” Squadron

58 operational sorties (111 hours)
¾ V1 (1/2 + ¼) on 22.7.1944
Decorated with Cross of Valour with Bar

I never came across his family.

Thanks again.
What does 25(p) etc mean ?
What was his victories ?

[RSwank]

Bergen,
Both 86 and 547 squadrons had been involved with antisubmarine operations before moving to Scotland where they both (according to the links below) continued such operations.

http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/86_wwII.html

http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn541-598.htm

Both squadrons were still sinking U-boats up to the end of the war, see the following two links.

http://uboat.net/boats/u579.htm

http://uboat.net/boats/u3523.htm