Japanese aircrew bailouts, prisoners?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

One example:

On 8 August 1942, during the Betty attack off Guadalcanal, many bombers were shot down. You will find in several books that the destroyer USS Bagley approached a floating Betty and saw the crew sitting in the wings. The Japanese airmen fired their pistols on the US sailors and then commited suicide. But in the book "the first team and the guadalcanal campaign", I learned that at the same time, US ships captured 9 survivors of the Japanese bombers.

Another:

Tainan Kokutai lost 20 aircraft over New Guinea in 1942 according to one source. I know that at least two pilots were captured, so prisoners are at least 10% of the total losses (not counting pilots that survived being shot down and returned to their unit).

For what is worth, my own opinions is that percentage of Japanese airmen in Allied POW camps is far superior to the percentage in Japanese overall losses (KIA+POW).

[Larry deZeng]

On 8 August 1942, during the Betty attack off Guadalcanal, many bombers were shot down. You will find in several books that the destroyer USS Bagley approached a floating Betty and saw the crew sitting in the wings. The Japanese airmen fired their pistols on the US sailors and then commited suicide. But in the book "the first team and the guadalcanal campaign", I learned that at the same time, US ships captured 9 survivors of the Japanese bombers.

See my post #4, above. Only 49 POWs for all of 1942 and the majority of those were sailors from a heavy cruiser that was sunk.

Tainan Kokutai lost 20 aircraft over New Guinea in 1942 according to one source. I know that at least two pilots were captured, so prisoners are at least 10% of the total losses (not counting pilots that survived being shot down and returned to their unit).

I thought we were talking about air crew, not just fighter pilots. Furthermore, it is really stretching things to extrapolate across the entire war years from one incident involving 20 aircraft and 2 captured pilots in 1942. The U.S. War Department kept very thorough and accurate figures on how many Japanese air crew were captured and the exact circumstances. If you wish to pursue the subject, you should be able to find some books that give that information. I know, for example, that the ATIS submitted a report at the end of the war on this to the Prisoner of War Board in Washington that gave Japanese POW statistics for the entire Pacific war. Very few Japanese air crew were taken prisoner, and those that were captured were usually too badly wounded or injured to take their own lives.

L.

[Brian Bines]

I seem to remember reading, possibly in the Saburo Sakai book, that on offensive flights many Japaese pilots (aircrew?) chose not to wear parachutes. They were not ordered to do this but chose this action as baling out over enemy territory would lead to being taken prisoner. Apparantly chutes were worn and used over the homeland though, Sakai's book was called Samurai but I no longer have a copy,

Brian Bines

Just watched Revi16's YouTube clip did the Japanses pilot kill himslf or did the guy with the pistol shoot him ?

[mars]

Originally Posted by rpeck350

I don't have any stat's to add but since most Japaneese airplanes were built with none to minor armor that most crew members were killed before they had a chance to bail out.
The air crew I would think knew that and thought parachutes would not help.
Of all the gun camera film I have seen I get the impression most Japaneese planes were on fire to a point of seeing only wing tips fairly quick.
Maybe not much help but just a thought.
Rick

Yes, mostly Japanese airplanes. especially earliy stage of the war, were built with minor armor (some later war Japanese airplanes were well armored), but again it is a misconception that a burst of .50 machine gun fire then that Japanese aicraft would immediately burst into fire and going down. Again you'd better read some book relate to detail combat history of the pacific war. following this an example:

Darwin Spitfires: The Real Battle for Australia
http://www.amazon.com/Darwin-Spitfir...f=pd_ys_ir_b_1

[mars]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Not my best knowledge area, but it seems to me that the percentage of Japanese airmen lost over enemy territory that surrendered was far higher than the percentage of infantrymen in the same situation.One book that may be interesting on the subject (I don't have it):http://www.washington.edu/uwpress/se...ks/STRANG.html

That is exactly my point, the percentage of Japanese airmen lost over enemy territory that became POW were much higher than infrantrymen, and to less extent, this rule also applies to Japanese sailers, if they did not choose to go down whith the ship, then they would much easier to give up, for example, I recall about 20 Japanese sailers lost at sea after their ships sunk in the battle of Middleway, surrendered to US navy without offering any resistance. (Gordon W. Prange's "Miracle at Midway"0

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

See my post #4, above. Only 49 POWs for all of 1942 and the majority of those were sailors from a heavy cruiser that was sunk.

Your POW figure is wrong. The Statistical Review: World War II,US War Department shows that 54 Japanese POWs were shipped to the continental USA in 1942, but that is not the total of all POWs. I suspect that these are only the POWs made in the Central Pacific area.

I have myself identified four cases where a total of 40 POWs were taken in this area:
7 December 1941: Kazuo Sakamaki, crewman of a midget submarine, captured at Pearl Harbor
18 April 1942: during the morning, after sinking the picket boat Nitta Maru #23 east of Japan, US ships picked up two Japanese survivors.
9 June 1942: two survivors of heavy cruiser Mikuma captured by submarine USS Trout (SS-202)
19 June 1942: 35 survivors of the aircraft carrier Hiryu captured by seaplane tender USS Ballard (AVD-10)

But these were not all POWs taken by US forces.

You are right that the biggest number of Japanese POWs in one time were the survivors of a heavy cruiser:
12 October 1942: 115 survivors of the cruiser Furutaka are captured off Guadalcanal

Other POWs were taken in the Solomons.

8 August 1942: 9 Japanese crew of Betty captured off Guadalcanal
11 September 1942: 6 survivors of a Betty shot down on the 11th captured by a patrol of Vatilau Island, near Florida (and a 7th killed)
11 October 1942: 109 survivors of destroyer Fubuki captured by US ships.
12-13 November 1942: destroyer Akatsuki sunk, 18 survivors later rescued by U.S. ships.
30 November 1942: the destroyer Takanami is sunk during the Battle of Tassafaronga: 197 killed; 48 survivors reached Guadalcanal, 19 of whom were captured by Americans

AFAIK most of these were then held in New Caledonia (Paita camp) or New Zealand (Featherstone camp). Hundred of POWs are said to have been in these camps in early 1943, but from the figures in COWRA, it seems to me difficult to count real POWs and interned civilians and merchant seamen or fishermen.

And then there are Japanese POWs taken by Australian and US in Australia or New Guinea, and which were detained in Australia. Some examples:

19 February 1942: Tadao Minami, an air gunner of a bomber involved in teh Darwin raid, bails out from his burning aircraft, swan to the shore and is captured.
28 February 1942: Lt. Katsuro Nagatomo of 4th Kokutai shot down and captured at Port Moresby
2 March 1942: 5 survivors of a Mavis of 21st Air Flotilla shot down on 15 February are captured by Australian on Bathurst Island.
28 April 1942: PO3c Yoshimitsu Maeda of Tainan Kokutai captured near Port Moresby
17 May 1942: PO2C Tsutomou Ito of Tainan Kokutai captured near Port Moresby

As for global figures rather than isolated cases, here is an interesting citation:

"While exact figures are elusive, a close approximation of the numbers of Japanese prisoners of war captured annually in the Southwest Pacific Area of operations (which encompassed Australia, New Britain, New Ireland, New Guinea, Borneo, the Celebes, and the Philippine Islands) is as follows: 1,167 in 1942; 1,064 in 1943; 5,122 in 1944; and 12,194 in 1945. Figures compiled from "Japanese Prisoners of War," May 19, 1945, box 333, entry 172, Records of the War Department General Staff, Military Intelligence Division (G-2), Record Group 165, National Archives, Washington, D.C."
http://studythepast.com/5388_spring1...een_reborn.pdf

This includes not Burma, where British claimed to have captured 3000 prisoners of war (later raised to 5000, but the later figure probably includes civilians). As for 1942, according to the book "Japanese prisoners of war in India, 1942-46: Bushido and barbed wire", less than nine Japanese were captured during the first Burma campaign, and about 30 during the first Arakan campaign (October 1942-April 1943).

[Larry deZeng]

L. Rizzotti wrote in part:

Your POW figure is wrong.

And your figures are the correct figures? I think there will always be disagreement on the total figures because, as you noted yourself, ground rules must be established regarding who to include and who to exclude. The figures will vary within a certain range no matter what books are consulted. The most acceptable figures, at least in my mind, will be those based on postwar special studies or tabulations prepared from official documents in the U.S. National Archives, such as the "Japanese Prisoners of War," May 19, 1945, that you cited.

The author of:
Frank, Richard B. Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle. New York: Penguin Books, 1992. ISBN: 0 14 01.6561 4. Pb. 800p. Illus. Maps. Extensive source notes. Index;
is widely considered to have written the definitive history of the Guadalcanal campaign. He spent nearly 20 years wading his way through the original archive documents and spent tens of thousands of dollars having Japanese language scholars translate the Japanese records for him. According to Frank on p.611, the Allies lost 264 aircraft and 420 aircrew during the Aug 42 - Feb 43 campaign, while the Japanese lost 446 aircraft and an estimated 1,260 aircrew. He does not give a figure for the number captured, but as you know from your own findings they were miniscule when compared to statistical equivalents from other air forces during World War II.

So, with that, I have achieved my objective, which was simply to get those interested to dig below the surface into the piles and piles of archival documents and the higher quality scholarly histories that exist. And you did that to a certain extent, so my work here is done because I now must get back to my own projects.

L.

[mars]

Come on, Larry, you obviously can not dispute the number of Japanese POW in Mr Rizzotti's post, but of course you have right to have your own opinion to this issue, so how about we just agree to disagree?

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Mars -

That's exactly what I suggested way back in my Post #4.

It is fully obvious to anyone carefully reading this thread, Mars, that Rizzotti and I are in relative agreement.

It is also obvious that you have offered nothing here but opinion. Where is your research, Mars? Anyway, I hope you learned something. Who knows? One of these days I might just bump into you in the NARA College Park research room while you are digging into the boxes and boxes or archive records, or perhaps in the stacks at the Library of Congress while you are looking for the 102-volume set of Senshi Sōsho. I might even let you buy me a beer, too!

Have a good one,

L.

[cpaige5@hotmail.com]

I find the dicussion quite interesting and I'll say my piece.

The two above mentioned books I just recently read and found them good for information. Japanese prisoners of war in India, 1942-46 and The Anguish of Surrender. I found one book I picked out of a New Zealand publishing house Beyond Death and Dishonour. This is a book by a Naval officer who was captured in the Guadacanal area when his ship went down. He talks about his emotions and meeting other crews including airmen and other naval personal from other ships that were sunk. He spent his days in a New Zealand Pow camp.