Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39

[edNorth]

Hi all

Not a theory anymore, I guess. New info on Ju 88 A-1 4D+AP downed 29.03.1940 has come forth.
"It would be neat to identify the harbor where this salvaged Ju88 was photographed. Looks like a long breakwater in the background – Coquet ?"

Royal Aircraft Establishment "Enemy Aircraft Report" EA 10/1 (dated April 1940) confirms Ju 88 A-1 code 4D+AP was landed at Import Dock, Blyth, Northumberland. I do not have have the actual report, only the index from obscure 1969 RAE cataloge. Anyone have copy of this particular RAE EA reports EA 10/1 to EA 10/20?

Since image of Ju 88 picture in question is no longer visible, this is on Flickr "ww2images archive" photostream (open source) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ww2imag...03735/sizes/z/

Similarity to these cranes, the furthest is possible (photo from 1910)
http://www3.northumberland.gov.uk/ca...%208046-08.jpg
or this ones
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/
but breakwater-quay (?) in background matches this photo from Blyth
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blythfo.../faves-flyeye/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/

Happy new year
Ed

[Allan125]

Hi Larry - As Ed North has bought this post back to life I noticed that in your piece of 25 February 2012 you had not incorporated the change of Squadron from 603 to the correct 602 as mentioned in my 12 February posting, hence this is a repeat of my 12th February 2012 post - hope that it is not too late.

You either have a typo, or your information is at fault - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section of 602 (City of Glasgow) squadron and not 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron AAF, although I agree that the days activities were shared by both Auxiliary squadrons.

Telegram received from A.C.M. Sir Hugh Dowding GCVO, KCB, CMG, ADC AOC-in-C Fighter Command "Well done. First blood to the Auxiliaries" from 602 Squadron ORB - 17 October 1939.

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the photo though - sorry

cheers

Allan

[edNorth]

Allan,
There were two Ju 88 A-1´s shot down that day (16.10.39) and one more damaged. Are you referring to the correct action, or am I misunderstanding this days combat?
I have 602 SQ (Flt/Lt. G. Pinkerton in “LO*S”) doing 4D+AK but 603 SQ (lead by Flt/Lt. Pat Gifford) doing 4D+DK, Ju 88 A-1 0023 was also damaged this date but returned Sylt, eventually to be repaired in Leipzig.
-Ed

[Allan125]

Hi Ed

I am referring to the fact that Larry states that - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section
of 603 Squadron, when in fact, like Pinkerton, they were all from 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron AAF, in his comment:

"According to our EOE Luft loss/damages DB:"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss."

And I have quoted my sources as:

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

I trust that this clears things up with both you and Larry - whilst I agree that both 602 and 603 Squadrons were involved that day, in the Green Section incident reported by Larry it was definitely 602 Squadron.

Allan

[Peter Cornwell]

Many thanks Ed for resolving the location of the harbour where the wreckage of 4D+AP downed on 29 March 1940 was beached. This is much appreciated.

Allan, rest assured that the EOE loss entry is correct & the details as quoted by Larry Hickey were not a true reflection of the current version. Unfortunately, he occasionally refers to and then makes public out-dated information which does little for our collective credibility. I'm beyond worrying about that myself but thank you for your perserverance.

By way of further clarification, Lw losses on the 16 October 1939 attack currently stand thus:

Stab I./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. One engine damaged by AA fire and cockpit hood lost during attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth. Next engaged by Blue Section of No.602 Squadron (S/L A. McKellar, F/Lt G. Pinkerton, and F/O P. C. Webb) and finally ditched in the sea off Crail 2.45 p.m. following further attack by elements of Green Section (S/L A.D. Farquhar and F/O P.J. Ferguson). FF Hptmn Helmut Pohle (Gruppenkommandeur) rescued - badly injured face in landing. BS Gefr August Schleicher rescued badly wounded - later died, BF Uffz Kurt Naake killed, and BO Fw Werner Weise missing. Aircraft 4D+AK 100% write-off.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Shot down by Spitfires of ‘B’ Flight No.603 Squadron (F/L P. Gifford, F/O K. MacDonald, and F/O C. Robertson) and crashed in sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.55 p.m. Also engaged by elements of Yellow Section of No.602 Squadron. FF Oberlt Siegmund Storp (Staffelkapitän), BO Oberfw Hugo Köhnke, and BF Oberfw Hans-Georg Hielscher all captured slightly injured - rescued by trawler Dayspring, BS Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% write-off.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Crash-landed at Westerland on return starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by F/O C. Robertson and P/O J.S. Morton of No.603 Squadron following attack on British Fleet in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. FF Lt Horst von Riesen and rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 45% damaged but repairable.

Finally Ed, WNr(0023) is fresh input (to me). So can we be sure of this ?

[Allan125]

Hello Peter

Thank you for clarifying the situation with regard to what you actually hold, and intend publishing, about the events of 16 October 1939, concerning both 602 and 603 Squadrons.

However, concerned that you show Archie McKellar as a S/Ldr - he was a serving member of 602 Squadron, not a supernumerary, so highly unlikely that he would also be the same rank as the actual Squadron OC at the time S/Ldr A D Farquhar, more likely a F/Lt., so what is your definitive source that states he was an S/Ldr in 602 at this time please?

Keep up the good, and lengthy, work - I look forward to its publication.

Allan

[Peter Achs]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

Finally Ed, WNr(0023) is fresh input (to me). So can we be sure of this ?

You can be sure of it. Enclosed is a photo of the Ju 88 0023 after the attack on Firth of Forth taken at the Junkers repair facility at Leipzig October 1939.

A question:
Does anyone have information on the fate of Hauptmann Pohle (postwar)?

Regards
Peter

[Andy Saunders]

I'm sure I corresponded with Pohle. I'll check.

[Allan125]

Originally Posted by Allan125

Hello Peter

Thank you for clarifying the situation with regard to what you actually hold, and intend publishing, about the events of 16 October 1939, concerning both 602 and 603 Squadrons.

However, concerned that you show Archie McKellar as a S/Ldr - he was a serving member of 602 Squadron, not a supernumerary, so highly unlikely that he would also be the same rank as the actual Squadron OC at the time S/Ldr A D Farquhar, more likely a F/Lt., so what is your definitive source that states he was an S/Ldr in 602 at this time please?

Keep up the good, and lengthy, work - I look forward to its publication.

Allan

Hello Peter

Further to my piece above concerning the rank of Archie McKellar on 16 October 1939 - according to my own research he was a Flying Officer at that time, attaining that rank on 8 May 1938, having been commissioned as a Pilot Officer on 8 November 1936, so even I was incorrect in guessing that he was a Flight Lieutenant.

90168 Archibald Ashmore McKellar was promoted from F/O to Flt/Lt on 1 June 1940 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34876/pages/3711 - he was transferred to 605 Squadron shortly afterwards, and was subsequently awarded the DFC in September 1940 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34945/pages/5487 as a Flight Lieutenant, along with a bar to the DFC in the Gazette of 8 October 1940, also as a Flt Lt, and the DSO as a S/Ldr on 26 November 1940, all for 605 Squadron.

I trust that you will now alter your record accordingly - after your own confirmation of my evidence of course.

Allan

[Peter Cornwell]

Allan,

Your input needs no confirmation by me. Loss list will be amended so.

Peter,

Many thanks for the image. Likewise with thanks for your interest.