An Impossible Task?

[RSwank]

There is a page in MACR 5805 for B-17 42-102464 which states: On 20 June 1944 a B-17 went down 500 m north of Bleckmar near Bergen-Celle. 2 men were captured rest were dead. I will read through the rest of the MACR and see what else it says. It may be a misfiled page, as the rest of the MACR seems to have all of the crew of 42-102464 marked as returned to duty and the plane going down in the "target area" of Le Bourget, France.

[Jock Auld]

Originally Posted by RSwank

There is a page in MACR 5805 for B-17 42-102464 which states: On 30 June 1944 a B-17 went down 500 m north of Bleckmar near Bergen-Celle. 2 men were captured rest were dead. I will read through the rest of the MACR and see what else it says. It may be a misfiled page, as the rest of the MACR seems to have all of the crew of 42-102464 marked as returned to duty and the plane going down in the "target area" of Le Bourget, France.

Mate,

That ties in with what the old girl says, she was quite emphatic about it, one of the crew landed on the doorstep of where I buy my eggs at the farm (Hagen). She said another crewman landed nearby and the rest were presumed still on board. I don't know if remains were recovered as we seem to have no American graves in our area, perhaps they were centralised somewhere? This came out in conversation when discussing the night fiighter that landed on the farm.

You guys know you your stuff!

Thanks

Jock

[Heuser]

Good evening,

there are at least two matching losses:

B-17G 42-38108 on 29.03.1944 (Huxdahl)
B-17G 42-97363 on 20.06.1944 (Bleckmar).

The latter one is the a/c mentioned in the KU-reports attached to MACR 5805.

Regards,

Heuser

[RSwank]

The KU report we need to find in KU 2262. The name of one of the crewmen is Thomas W Howard serial number 17045077. What may have happened here is that Howard was on the plane that crashed in France but he evaded and returned to duty and then went down again. Somewhat confused in the MACR.

[RSwank]

For 42-97363 only one of the crew was killed. The rest were captured and eventually RTD. The MACRs seem to be somewhat messed up.

Attached are a couple of the misfiled? pages. There may be 4 in the MACR.

[RSwank]

This is very strange. Below is a link to a page on the crash in France on 14 June. Note: Howard is captured, only one man evaded. Why would his name show up again on a dogtag at Bleckmar on the 20th?

Note: the translated German document on Howard (posted above) says the plane was from the 96th Group 337th Squadron. Howard was in the 457th BG, 750th BS.

Note the date of the Bleckmar crash should be 20 June (not 30 June) as I first posted, sorry. I corrected my original post, but I note it is wrong in the "quote".

http://www.457thbombgroup.org/Fate/RLF066.HTML

[RSwank]

We will probably need to look at 42-97363 (from the 96th BG, 413th BS) more carefully as the crew was quite spread out when they were captured. Capture locations include Bleckmar, Scharnhorst, Dedelstorf, Osterloh and Sandlingen. The plane itself crashed "North of Celle", but no specific location seems to be given by the Germans.

The other two 96th BG planes lost that day crashed quite a ways away from this area.

[RSwank]

I thought that overnight the European contingent would have this solved. ;-)

I want to post the 3rd page (apparently misfiled in MACR 5805 for 42-102464). The 4th misfiled page is a duplicate.

[RSwank]

Looking at the 3 pages I have posted (above) and putting the information together it appears the plane that crashed was thought by the Germans to be from the 96th BG, two men were captured and the rest were dead, and the plane crashed 20 June at 9:30 500 m North of Blechmar.

One name that seemed to be associated with the plane was T W Howard. Clearly this confused the postwar investigating officers as it does us, as one of them crossed out the 20 date and wrote in 14, which is when Howard's plane actually crashed. He then filed (misfiled) these four pages from a German KU 2262 report with Howard's crash.

Here is a quick summary on the crash of 42-97363. The plane was hit by flak over the target Magdeburg. The crew bailed out over a large area and with a large time delay from the first to the last. Some of them were not captured until 2 or 3 days after the 20th. There was one man killed by flak who was dead in the ship. The pilot, Willie Fields Hunt, Jr was the last man to bail out. He was captured at Blechmar and he says the plane crashed about 1000 yards from him. There would have been only one body in the ship.

Speculation on what "may" have happened. With the crew so spread out, the Germans may not have known immediately the fate of the crew. They may have "assumed" all the rest crew were in the plane since the had captured the pilot at the crash site (and perhaps one other close enough to be "matched up" with that plane) but others were too far away and some were captured days later. They started their "write-ups" as KU-2262.

As to T W Howard, I think there must have been some mix-up with the records by the Germans, perhaps at Dulag Luft. Somehow he got associated with KU-2262 by mistake. I think he has nothing to do with this crash.

The man, William Lloyd Delamater, who was dead in the plane is on the tablets of the missing here:
http://www.abmc.gov/search-abmc-buri...0#.U3DDIIFdXE0

Note that no bodies were recovered from the plane, the plane burned up on the ground (100% destroyed).

[RSwank]

Here is the information on the capture of the crew. Note that the Germans had no idea (for most of them) what plane they were from. I think that is why, initially the assumption was that there was a crew burned up in the plane.

P: William Fields Hunt, Jr: Captured June 20 near Bleckmar
CP: Nicholas James Kasunick: Captured June 20 at 9:40 at Dedelstorf, Plane Unknown
N: James Eugene Calahan, (same as CP)
B: Edmund Erland Kuivilla (same as CP)
E: John Joseph Silva, (same as CP)
RO: Everett Earl McCulloch: Captured June 22 a 7:00 at Osterloh, Plane Unknown
RW: William Lloyd Delamater (dead in the ship and burned up in crash, still listed MIA)
TG: William Daniel Flannery (capture place and time not listed)
LW: James Edward Watts: Captured June 23 at 7:00 at Sandlinger, Plane Unknown
BT: Gordon Allen Walker: Captured June 21 at 18:00 at Scharnhorst, Plane Unknown

It is "possible" the "two" who were captured according to the stories were the pilot, Hunt and the tail gunner, Flannery. The rest were captured some distance away and for some of them, days later. The Germans may not have gotten things figured out until the crew were all moved to Dulag Luft. The Germans never went back to "correct" the KU 2262 as they had a KU 819A for this crew.