Hurricane P2701

[markjsheppard]

Alex

20th May 1940.
N2601 damaged on the ground during enemy bombing attack. 4pm. Sergeant A H Deacon unhurt. Aircraft damaged but repairable.
(BofF).

Is there any photos of other evidence of N2601.

It is reported as beloging to 145Sqn. It could well have been transferred and operated in France.

There is a possibility P2701 could have been N2601? The photo of P2701 could show a Hurricane damaged during a raid and may well be an airfield. The photo shows P2701 as repairable and was also abandoned as seen with the German troops.

Do you think it could have been incorrectly referenced especially as it seems P2701 was not Allens.

regards

Mark

In BofF book P2555 was shot down in combat on 20th May and crashed landed near Abberville at 101.5am. Sgt Howes unhurt. Aircraft a write off. If Allen's there should be no photos?

[paulmcmillan]

Levine should have an interview on return from POW camp and end of war they are held at Kew in the WO series. Only the start and end name index for Files are held online so you need to find it by looking in it alphabetically by name. One of questions is where and how captured this should give a location Paul

[Geoff Rayner]

Mark

N2601/P2701 presents an interesting and plausable scenario, but the photo of P2701 looks more like a successful wheels-up landing finally coming to a halt with the nose tangled in a wire fence and with broken prop blades. No real evidence of blast damage (just one split in the fabric), but the aircraft does have a 'dirty' appearance.

Regards
Geoff

[Alex Smart]

Hello Geoff,

Re the dirty appearance, yes, my thoughts on this are that the aircraft's previous squadrons code had been roughly "painted" over as the "L" and serial number are still quite clean and clear to read.
But the downside to that idea is that the aircraft seems only to have served with 85 Sqdn so unless the earlier code was still being worn on her when in France and the later code never applied ???

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Edit to my earlier post on page 1 , post 6.

P2701 - 11th May 40 - Pilot unknown, Brought down in Belgium, a/c ( & pilot ?) Returned.[ cannot now find ref for this info ;( ].

I now find that this date came from AB's P1000 to R9999.
P2701 - 85 - Shot down over Belgium, 11.5.40.

Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Lepine (not Levine sorry) interview should be in


WO 208/5443 LABATT - LUCAS

[markjsheppard]

Geoff,

I remember reading about Z5227 (81Sqn/151 Wing in Russia) was trying to take off during a bombing raid on 6th Oct 1941. A blast near by stopped the engine, pilot got out and was blown off the wing by another blast. When raid was over, there was no damage to the Hurricane itself.

It would not be implausible that P2701 was damaged in a bombing raid and interestingly the pilot is listed so he was with his aircraft. Whether landing/taking off or just on the ground I have yet to establish.

Alex,

Interestingly on the 11th May F/O D H Allen returned damaged in his Hurricane near Nivelles. Allen unhurt but aircraft repairable. Interestingly no serial listed. The other three Hurricanes damaged were N2388, L1979 and P2821. Could this have been P2701 even if first listed with the Sqn on the 13th May. Would not be the first time tissue dates were wrong. P3351 was listed as belonging to 73Sqn from 18th June. It actually joined on the 3rd June.

regards

Mark

[Pieter H]

Hi guys,
I don't fully understand why this discussion is hopping around like this, but let me try to bring it back to the original question: why, where and when was the P2701 lost?

To me one thing is pretty sure from the new picture: the P2701 was located when found by Wehrmacht soldiers at Choisy-en-Brie, which is - as I explained in my earlier post - equivalent to the French (large) air force base La Ferté-Gaucher.
So this must have been an RAF Hurricane that was forced to land - probably damaged or out of fuel in some way - at this air field. Not necessarily during an operational flight, could also have been a transfer flight. It happened regularly that RAF aircraft landed at a French base, where mostly the British pilotes could take off the next day after a good French dinner, wine and refueling. For an unknown reason the P2701 apparently was not able to take off again, either through damage or developments on the ground.

The questions then are:
- when did this happen?
- to which squadron it belonged?
I fully accept Peter Cornwell's input that this plane was issued to No.85 Sqn on May 13, but all loss reports since then seem wrong as to this serial.
The question then remains what a No.85 Sqn Hurricane did as far east as La Ferté?
The only logical explanation I can think of is that the aircraft was transfered either directly or through a MU to another squadron. E.g. one operating more east and staying longer in France than No.85 Sqn, e.g. Nos.1, 73 or 501 Sqns. Transfer date latest May 20, when No.85 Sqn left France.
I buy the argument that towards the end of the campaign more aircraft did not carry their squadron code, so we have to look broader than just No.73 Sqn, unfortunately.
I would hope that the incident where a Hurricane had to be abandoned by its pilot at a French air field was noticeable enough to appear in the relevant squadron diary.

A separate, and equally difficult discussion, is which Hurricane was then flown by Allen on May 18 if it was not the P2701. But we should not mix those two discussions!

Cheers, Pieter

[Geoff Rayner]

Mark,
I take your point about the effects of blast. Still a possibility but in this case I would favour a wheels up landing probably with dead engine, as in your original post.

Pieter,
Squadron? If you follow my reasoning from this photo (and enlargement) then definitely 85Sqdn for P2701. I suggest it is P2701 from the other side:
1. What appears as an 'I' on the port side of the photo in post #1 is just the start of the letter R ... then the unfortunate painter was probably told to stop as the aircraft was required immediately. It would have to be finished later. It wouldn't be the only case of missing lettering - hectic times, rushed replacement aircraft and limited resources.
2. A close inspection of the serial number on the stbd side of the photo below shows P2. Unfortunately the V masks the rest, but the top of a squared 'O' can just be seen within the letter V. Whoever now has a good copy of this photo would be able to confirm this and add more.
3. Same style of fence, and damage to fence, in both photos.
4. Same types of vegetation divided by the fence.
5. Attitude of the aircraft is the same in both and I can detect no differences (except the lettering) between the two aircraft images. The break and bend of the vertical prop blade is particularly noticeable.
6. If Peter C is correct that P2701 went to 85 Sqdn on 13 May, then being marked 'R' would fit well with the previous 'R' being lost on 11 May (N2388 according to BofFT&N, and this picture is not of N2388)
Location?
1. I find it hard to see an airfield. The location of Choisy-en-Brie given by the seller of the P2701 photo could so easily be a 'red herring' (but not to be dismissed entirely). Although some other photos of French aircraft by the same seller were marked with that location and appeared to come from the same photo printing, it doesn't mean they were taken at the same location. In the days of reel film, with only a limited number of shots on the reel, adjacent photos on the reel could be days or kilometres apart. Adding to an album could be weeks, months or even years afterwards. How good would the memory be for correct annotation? They might even have been copy prints taken by someone else. Many such photos were duplicated and passed around colleagues.
2. Choisy-en-Brie is over 100km from 85 Sqdns activities between 13th and 19th May.
3. Being some 50km east of Paris, Choisy would not have been occupied by the Germans until the first week in June at the earliest. Surely there would have been ample time for the pilot, or word of him, to get back.
4. A trip to the location by someone with a few weeks to spare could at least verify from the landscape if Choisy was a possibility.

[Pieter H]

Hi Geoff,

To start, I buy your story that the VY-R p2??1 (right side picture) and the P2701 code I? (left side picture) are the same aircraft. Mainly determined by the identical fence damage. Very creative thinking to interpret the left side coding as an unfinished one, but I think you're right. Shows again how complex it all is.
That would then definitely make it a No.85 Sqn aircraft. My apologies for having doubted that.
It looks like like P2701 was the replacement VY-R of the May 11 VY-R loss.

As to the date it then probably remains the May 18 loss of F/O Allen. But the 12 Days in May story where F/L Gleed of 87 Sqn describes Allen as crashing into a building can then not be correct. If it is this loss the location is around Le cateau. But what happened to Allen after his landing, making him "missing" then remains a mistery.

Regards, Pieter