Camouflage colours on a Ju 87A

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Simon Schatz

Dénes,
why do you believe that the lightest colour isn't RLM 63? Just check early planes like the Hs123...

Simon, I believe (I see) the nose is covered by a fairly light colour (#1), left to it is a darker colour (#2), while even further left there is a thin slice of even darker colour (#3). That's why I assume #1 is light grey, #2 is dark green and #3 is dark brown (see below, at left).

Regarding the other photos you posted, I obviously agree that the lighter shade is light grey (RLM 63). However, I can see only three shades on the upper surface, not four.

Based on my experience, once should never compare different B/W photos when analysing colour shades, only shades visible on one particular photo, particularly if more than one aircraft is visible, just like the one attached. See photo at right (i omitted purposely the reference to the RLM 63 shade on the nose of the nearest aircraft, as the area is obscured by the rotating propeller) .

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Clint Mitchell

Dear Dénes, I am overwhelmingly apologetic, but I fear that I would be inclined to disagree with your current conclusion regarding the colour attribution of the light segments of the camouflage pattern depicted on the photo very kindly posted by Giampiero Piva, (thank you).

Your attribution of a sand like shade on this pre-war splinter pattern confuses me somewhat. I have always been led to believe in the past that such colourings would be more beneficial in concealing the aircraft in more sandy, desert like regions of the planet, closer to the equator perhaps and not in the more leafy, green and dark brown terrains much farther North. I would even dare to add that the inclusion of such a shade could perhaps be seen as being rather negligent of the fundamental practices of adequate aircraft camouflaging techniques. Which I'm sure had been thoroughly investigated by this point?

Clint, you don't need to be overwhelmingly apologetic, we are here to share thoughts and ideas, even if they are conflicting. This works as long as one does not try to enforce his point of view on anothers. We don't have to necessarily agree, it's all fun, nothing bloody serious.

About the usage of the sand yellow/brown colour, it was extensively used in mid-1930s (even beyond) on various European military aircraft, like Czechoslovak, Swiss, Hungary (only recently proven), etc., nothing extraordinary here.

[Simon Schatz]

Sorry Dènes, but I'm at a point were I have no idea what you mean.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...5&d=1436734139

1 and 3 have the same shade, but as the nose is more round the light gets more reflection. so it's lighter, but if you check at the parts were is no light it's the same as at the rear section.
1 and 3 are RLM 62 green.
2 is RLM 61 dark Brown
and 4 is RLM 63 Light grey.

The base of this plane is RLM 61/62/63, just as I wrote before the markings C24 have another two colours. See what Clint has done. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...7&d=1436857259

Cheers,

[Clint Mitchell]

Chris, thank you.

These exquisite in flight photos of the same occasion offer us a wonderful opportunity to see the different colour arrangements of the A and B scheme in all their glory. Here we see and I hypothesise that on the pre-war camouflage pattern assigned to the Ju87A that the RLM 61 (Dunkelbraun) segments stayed in the same location across the A and B scheme yet the RLM63 (Hellgrau) and RLM 62 (Grün) segments switched colouring between the two camouflaging options available to the factories. In the first photo we see that the forward upper nose section of the middle aircraft is clearly coloured in the RLM 63 light grey colour. The other two however are wearing the other combination which swapped the colours and the RLM 62 green has been used to colour the same segment. I suggest that the photo posted by "Modeldad" showing the Ju87A with the collapsed undercarriage is camouflaged in the "B" splinter combination (RLM 63 on the forward upper nose) and the photo that started this discussion posted by Dénes is in fact painted in the "A" combination (RLM 62 on the forward upper nose) as seen in the Ullmann Ju87 pre-war camouflage diagram.

Dear Dénes, I agree wholeheartedly on your views of how these kinds of topics should be discussed. They are often conflicting else they wouldn't need to be discussed in the first place. I was having fun before and was enjoying the discussion, but as you saw my wording caused one of the more emotional participants to get quite upset and I was therefore reminded by the moderation team that I should be more understanding and careful of how I communicate. So I thought it best to be especially careful from now on as I didn't want to cause anymore emotional stress to those members less capable of managing their feelings.

I was only intending to enforce my ideas just as much as a scientist would if you were to suggest to them that the earth is flat. I was and am still 110% convinced as to my theories on this pre-war camouflage scheme. I am not a newcomer to this kind of investigation and would not be attempting to push my theories if I had not carried out an extremely thorough investigation into a great many photos. Not just a quick glance. I mean accurately mapping them onto the aircraft exactly as they appear in the photos and comparing them. Also taking into consideration the usual things that trip up many people when they look at black and white photos. This has lead to a great many discoveries that tend to contradict what has been previously assumed to be the case in the usual published sources.

Thank you for including your list of other airforces that have implemented a sandy colour into the camouflage patterns of their aircraft. I notice though that the most important to this discussion is currently missing and that is the Luftwaffe. Especially taking into consideration the period that we are currently discussing shown in the photos in this topic. During this time it is clear that there is no evidence that even slightly suggests that they would have been using a sandy coloured paint on the ground attack aircraft in Europe. Had the later "Sandgelb" LW paint even been developed at this time? This is not a period where they would have been scrambling around for better ways to conceal their aircraft and changing the official colouring schemes that their aircraft were supplied in as approved by the RLM.

This is why I am comfortable with my conclusions that I have made throughout this discussion, but am always happy and welcome being proven wrong with evidence to back up anything otherwise.

[Clint Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Simon Schatz

BTW: Can somebody identify the W.Nr. on that plane?

Simon, not sure if the Ju87A would have had this many produced or whether that was a factor here, but I see 4 digits possibly 5329, but don't hold me to that as others are far more qualified to confirm these kinds of questions.

Interestingly that photo also shows to good effect the fresher application of RLM63 on the upper rudder/tail area to cover the older national markings. The older factory application of the same segment at the bottom of the rudder where the WNr. is visible (thus not painted over) is noticeably darker. You can even see the brush strokes...

[Dénes Bernád]

Simon and Clint, I managed to upload the two photos in my post on the top, please revisit it. I also encourage people not to go the way with thinking, like: there could be absolutely NO other colours on early Lw aircraft, but RLM 61/62/63, and try to squeeze into this schematic what you see (or not) on various photos. The early Lw camouflage colours topic is not fully explored yet.

[Clint Mitchell]

Dear Dénes, respectfully, I'm going to have to agree to totally disagree at this stage. This early there was quite standard practices in place when aircraft were camouflaged. It's really not as complicated as people try to make it.

[Dénes Bernád]

OK, Clint, let's leave it here, then.

[Clint Mitchell]

Simon, here's a photo of a Ju87A in the 5000 range...

Attachment 12203
Source: expired eBay via Göran Larsson

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Simon Schatz

1 and 3 are RLM 62 green.

If you check out Ullmann's dwg. on page 1, he also states the nose is RLM 63 light grey.