Tr.Gr 186

[sidney]

As promised, references for my post No.4:

JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 - Teil 1/I, page 297.
JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 - Teil 1/II, page 415.
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Post No.9: Larry, I feel that your latest post sums it up nicely.
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Post No.10: So, this would mean that after all there was the Stab Träger Flieger Gruppe II./186 in existence before the war. Would it be possible to get some more details, such as the Gruppenkommandeur's name, or the like? Most interesting.

In JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 - Teil 2, page 485, it was stated that from 15 September 1939 it was Hptm. Heinrich Seeliger, former StaKa of 6./186.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Larry deZeng]

Sinisa/Sidney -

This might help a bit, although I have never seen a name for the Gruko during the brief period in 1938, but:

BLATTNER, Erich?
BODE, Helmuth?
GRASSMANN, Peter?
HEFELE, Hans?
ROTH, Gert (Ghert) Gustav Konstantin von?
SCHWENGERS, Wilhelm?
SEELIGER, Heinrich?
ZEZSCHWITZ, Wolfgang von?

The above are all possibilities, with HEFELE seemingly the most likely.

Trägerjagd-Gr. II./186
Trägerjagdgruppe II./186

also as: II.(J)/186 (T)

Formation and Organization. (Oct 39)
Formed 1 November 1938 at Kiel-Holtenau as a fighter (Jagd-) Gruppe for the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, then under construction at Kiel. An earlier attempt to form this Gruppe had occurred on 1 August 1938 at Bug auf Rügen in the Baltic but was abandoned on 22 October. As formed, it consisted of 4.(Stuka)/186 (T) with Ju 87s followed on 15 November by 6.(Jagd) Staffel with Bf 109Bs and finally on 15 July 1939 a 5.(Jagd) Staffel came into existence. The Gruppenstab was not formed until 10 September 1939 and on the same date the Stuka Staffel was handed over to I.(St.)/186 (T). A new 4.(Jagd)/186 (T) was eventually set up on 29 February 1940 by renaming 2./Jagdgruppe 101.

Poland, North Germany, Belgium and Norway. (Sep 39 - Jul 40)
22-24 Aug 39: 5. and 6. Staffel transferred from Kiel-Holtenau to Brüsterort/NW of Königsberg in preparation for the attack on Poland.
1 Sep 39: operating under 1. Fliegerdiv. on the opening day of the campaign in Poland, flew cover for Stuka attacks on the Polish naval base at Hela. These escort missions continued around Danzig Bay until 3 September and then encounters with enemy aircraft rapidly diminished.
....................................

L.

[sidney]

Larry,

Thank you for the exhaustive reply, it is highly valued.

I understand that the list of the officers refers to a possible Gruppenkommandeur of the short-lived I./186 (T). Your suggestion that it most likely was Hefele is in agreement with what I have read in the aforementioned JFV 1/I: "... on 1 August 1938 at Burg auf Rügen one Trägerfliegergruppe was formed under Maj. Hefele under designation I./186 destined for the carrier 'Graf Zeppelin', although it was only a little while later, on 22 October 1938, disbanded and its officers put at RLM’s disposal ..."

My query in post No.11 was on the Stab Träger Flieger Gruppe II./186 and its Gruppenkommandeur shortly before the war (ref. post No.10). This is the first indication that some Stab of the Trägergruppe might have been in existence even then, and it would be nice to have some more info on it if at all possible.
-------
Furthermore, and relatively unrelated to the above, an excerpt from your summary above ...A new 4.(Jagd)/186 (T) was eventually set up on 29 February 1940 by renaming 2./Jagdgruppe 101...

I was under the impression that it was mostly personnel from 3./JGr. 101, the so-called "Führer-Staffel" from the Campaign against Poland, who along with its Staffelkapitän, Dietrich Robitzch, were given the opportunity to remain within the Luftwaffe fighter arm. The leverage might have been their all-to-brief "Führer-Staffel" fame. The issue with this theory is that I have little to substantiate it, except for the Staffelkapitän himself. It is the list of the pilots, who transferred this way to II./186 (T) that could give a definite answer to it. Would you happen to have it?

Best Regards,
Sinisa

[Adam]

@Seaplanes: not having access to the BA/MA file this helps flesh things out a lot. It certainly makes sense the 3.9.39 order given the other transfers made between FdL Ost and West at around this time.

@Larry: the officer listing is most useful...as have been the sources. Thank you!

@Sidney: thanks for taking the time on the sources and finding page references.


However, as with Sidney, I'm still troubled by a Stab.II./Tr.Gr.186 prior to 10 September. Is the order for transfer on 3.9.39 to Stab./506 a reflection that a Stabsstaffel was merely on paper, or was it a unit in the process of forming or just an ideal that was not realised until after the outbreak of war?

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Adam -

However, as with Sidney, I'm still troubled by a Stab.II./Tr.Gr.186 prior to 10 September. Is the order for transfer on 3.9.39 to Stab./506 a reflection that a Stabsstaffel was merely on paper, or was it a unit in the process of forming or just an ideal that was not realised until after the outbreak of war?

The Feldpostübersicht entries below strongly suggest that the Stabsstaffel was not formed until the beginning of 1940:

(26.8.1939 – 1.1.1940) L 24187 = Stab II. Jagd-Geschwader 186 = III. Gruppe Jagd-Geschwader 77.
(2.1.1940 – 27.4.1940) L 38299 = Stabsstaffel II. (Jagd) 186 = Stabsstaffel Jagdgeschwader 77.

L.

[Larry deZeng]

Sidney/Sinisa -

Furthermore, and relatively unrelated to the above, an excerpt from your summary above ...A new 4.(Jagd)/186 (T) was eventually set up on 29 February 1940 by renaming 2./Jagdgruppe 101...

I was under the impression that it was mostly personnel from 3./JGr. 101, the so-called "Führer-Staffel" from the Campaign against Poland, who along with its Staffelkapitän, Dietrich Robitzch, were given the opportunity to remain within the Luftwaffe fighter arm. The leverage might have been their all-to-brief "Führer-Staffel" fame. The issue with this theory is that I have little to substantiate it, except for the Staffelkapitän himself. It is the list of the pilots, who transferred this way to II./186 (T) that could give a definite answer to it. Would you happen to have it?

No, but I did some background checking on the relationship between 4.(Jagd)/186 (T), ZG 1 and Jagdgruppe 101. Here are some miscellaneous notes, although they certainly do not answer your question:

L 33858 = 4./Jagdgeschwader 186 = 7./Jagdgeschwader 77
L 30508 = 5.(Jagd)/186 = 8. Staffel Jagdgeschwader 77
L 18152 = 6. Jagd-Geschwader II./186 = 9. Staffel Jagd-Geschwader 77


L 00722 = Stab II./ZG 1 = Stab JGr. 101 = Stab II./ZG 1
L 01402 = 1./ZG 1 = 1./JGr. 101 = 4./ZG 1
L 01403 = 2./ZG 1 = 2./JGr. 101 = 5./ZG 1
L 01544 = 3./ZG 1 = 3./JGr. 101 = 6./ZG 1


KADOW, Gerhard.
KIENZLE, Walter.
KOLLEWE, Gerhard.
LION, Karl-Hermann. ("Charly" )
MAHLKE, Helmut.
RESTEMEYER, Werner
RETTBERG, Ralph von.
ROBITZSCH, Dietrich.

L.

[sidney]

Larry,

Thank you for your best effort in this regard. The list of the personnel, which I understand transferred (or might have transferred) from Jagdgruppe 101 to 4.(J)/186 (T) is much appreciated.

Perhaps some TOCH member might be able to shed some additional light on the aforementioned transfer.

Best regards,
Sinisa

[sidney]

Adam,

You are most welcome. Just a quick note - I am not sure why you refer to the Stab Träger Flieger Gruppe II./186 as a Stabsstaffel? The Stab of a Jagdgruppe at that time (i.e., August/September 1939) nominally consisted of three aircraft, and in some cases those were not even operational because of the lack of trained pilots. That might have been the case with this particular Stab, which as you rightly suggested, might have been in existence on paper only.

Later in the war, in October/November 1942, there was the JG 51 Stabsstaffel, formed from the 6./JG 51, which was equipped with the Fw 190 A aircraft and detached from the rest of II./JG 51, which was equipped with the Bf 109 G-2/trop and sent to Tunisia.

Hope that I did not overdo this - no intention to lecture, just for the sake of clarity.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Adam]

Sinisa,

You are correct in pointing the distinction out, my intention was just to point out the entity of a "stab" as a distinct unit

Thank you Larry for the extra information!