Aerial Battles around Kiev October 1943

[yogybär]

Does anyone know the order of battle in these air battle, i.e. above the bridgeheads N of Kiev?

On the Luftwaffe side, I am pretty sure that even JG54 was involved in this pretty southern battle, as well as some JG51. JG52 for sure, as they are the usual suspexcts for LF4/HG Süd . For Kampf- & Schlachtgeschwader, I haven't checked my data yet.

On the VVS-side, I just know that Voroshekin's IAP was involved, and they had colleagues in La5 and Il-2 as well . Also, I gotta read some more about this.

Target is to make a comparison of the forces involved. When one looks at the deployment of even JG54, it seems that the Lw put in as much as possible in any way in the South that autumn...

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Do not forget the Hungarian air brigade's units.

[yogybär]

I found the following data:
Luftwaffe had ca. 600AC, 40% fighters
VVS employed the 2nd Air Army with also ca. 600planes, incl. Voroshekins Yak7B-unit.

Who kows more? Csaba, which hungarian units do you know about?

[Csaba B. Stenge]

4 Staffel (one Ju 88 bomber, a Ju 87 bomber, a Ju 88 long recce and a Fw 189 tactical recce each) Did not count the transport planes.

[yogybär]

German units which might have been involved used the following AF's which I still have to find on the map:
Stab, I, II, 10./SG2: Nowo Krassnoje, Pervomaisk;
III/SG77: Kirowograd, Kalinowka;
NSGr.4: Nowy Dwor, Radziwillow, Usin, Biala-Zerkwa;
III/JG52: Nowo-Zaporoshye, Malaja Beresowka/Alexandria, Kirowograd, Apostolowo;

Csaba, do you know which AF's the RHAF used during that operation or maybe, which german units the cooperated with? Why were the "Pumas" not involved?

[Dénes Bernád]

From early September 1943 on, the Hungarian fighters were based on Poltava airfield, about 300 km E from Kiev. At that time, only the 5/2. Fighter Squadron stayed on the front zone, which incorporated the few 1/1. Fighter Squadron pilots who remained to soldier on.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Heheheheh, as Dénes pointed out, I 'forgot' to mention the fighters.

Well, all Hungarian unit were subordinated to German ones at this time (different recce, bomber and fighter units, the subordination situation was changed sometimes as well, the Hungarian fighters, for example, were subordinated to three different Jagdgeschwader's Gruppen for a short period in 1943).

The 5/2. Staffel did not use the Puma head in October.

From Hungarian point of view, among the mentioned units, the SG 77 is the most important (the Hungarian Stuka Staffel was subordinated to the II./SG 77 but flew with the III./SG 77 as well).

[yogybär]

Date of September 1943 is too early, I think. Also, Poltava was liberated early September 1943. What did the hungarian fighters after retreating from Poltave? And again: Which AF's did the RHAF use?

Back to my stuff:
Most of the cities I mentioned above are pretty far away from Kiew:
Biala-Zerkwa ca. 50km;
Pervomaisk ca. 300km S;
Alexandria, Kirowograd ca. 280km SE
Apostolowo 500km;
Malaja Beresowka, Kalinowka, Nowy Dwor, Radziwillow, Usin, Nowo Krassnoje?

Nowo-Zaporoshye should have been soviet/liberated during the battle around Kiew

So, my search is not successfull yet...

But I found out:

II/JG54 was based in Kiew and later Shitomir,
IV/JG51 was in Shitomir,
II/F11 in Kiev-Süd
complete SchG1 in Kiew-Süd.
KG4+Stab,I/KG51 were in in the Ukraine.
Who knows more...

Please help

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I'll collect you some but not now (have no time for that)

[yogybär]

Bump .

Strange, normally the Lw-side is much easier then the VVS-side when it comes to OOB's. But here it seems different.

Is there really no information about this operation from the german side? For the VVS, we already have quite some information gathered.

Dénés, do you know where and within which german unit the RHAF fighters were in October?