Kurt Hammel,Gunther Scholz of JG5

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I checked that for 6th February 1942 and it certainly is on the microfilm. In fact I worked-out a rough crash-site are of 50km West of Ozero.
But questionable is the claim for 24th March 1942.
Known are the first twenty-seven confirmed claims, the last two would be those in August 1942 and August 1943, but as those previous to these are only on the subsidiary A.S.M/V.N.E microfilm there could well be some missing to us. Therefore personally I am numbering those with JG 54 Nr.2-Nr.27, thereafter no numbering, and excluding that from 24th March 1942. I am reducing Scholz's total to at least Thirty-two!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Johannes

Since Ozero simply means lake in Russian, is it possible to be more precise?
Scholz own memory place him early in Feb 1942 moving back to JG 54 near Leningrad. He had already received transfer orders in January while recuperating from jaundice in his home at Chemnitz. His own memory had no recollection of any mission on 6.2.1942. Whatever, if he made a claim that date it must have been with 7./JG 54.

With regard to the claim dated 24.3.1942 also Group Prien has doubts about it.
The date is three days after IV./JG 1 had been re-designated III./JG 5 and personally I doubt Scholz and Stab III./JG 5 were anywhere near the front on that date, so yes, to me it is out as well. See Möbius book on page 86 and Scholz recollections.

It also has to be said that Scholz himself makes no claims in the book since he basically has no recollections of such dates at all.

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

My Ost map grid system ends a little above Leningrad, no where near the grid reference given for the claim of 37Ost20882, I used reference 36Ost20882 which is about 100km South-East of Leningrad, used this to mark the same spot on an atlas page, then followed the atlas page exactly 1000km due North. This brought me to an area 50km West of Oz.Imandra Oz.Imandra with your language reference would be Lake Imandra. However on the Western shoreline of this lake is a place name of Imandra, and on the Eastern shoreline is a place name of Ozera, and the rough claim site would appear to be 50km West of the place name Ozera...........if I have not made a complete mess of it.
However as this area is only 150km SSE or Murmansk perhaps I have made a complete mess of it, unless he was in fact with Stab.III./JG 5 and not 7./JG 54.
The mikrofilm entry states the former, but the films are only 99.99% accurate, so there is always doubt. Another way of saying the crash-site would be in Russia 160km East of the Finnish place name of Lokka.
Somebody better qualified than myself should look into this.

It's a pity we couldn't get an almost complete abschüße list to Scholz before he died in 2014. Did the same with Friedrich Obleser a few years before he died. My friend Bernd Barbas had questioned him about his claims over U.S aircraft in 1944 of which he was always quoted as have 120 confirmed claims, of which nine were U.S, however I could find nothing for him U.S wise and knew Bernd was meeting him shortly and could he ask about it. Obleser was very honest about it and said he did shot-down nine U.S aircraft during 1944, however on each occasion he was after fleeing for his life and thus saw no impact, therefore he submitted no claims, but he had no details as the American's stole his flugbuch just after the war. So Bernd and myself quickly typed-up an abschüße list of 112 confirmed claims over Russian aircraft, and Bernd presented it to him at the JG 52 re-union. Bernd also had the fore-site to get a photo taken of the event. This was the first time Obleser had information on any of his claims for sixty years. I do believe Ernst Obermeier's biography was some way off in it's calculations.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Johannes

Yes the PlQu stated is west of Murmansk alright, but since III./JG 5 did not exist on 6.2.1942 and 'our' Scholz had not yet even been transferred to IV./JG 1, you can see there is a clear problem here.

Since so many sources state the same thing (and I don't believe it is a case of copying each other), something seems to be wrong with the microfilm. Since I have not seen it, impossible to say where the problem really is.

A good site covering almost all Luftwaffe PlQu can be found here.
It looks good and fits well with those spots I have tried.
http://airfields-wwii.com/tools/gradnetz.html

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

I know what you mean III./JG 5 just shouldn't have existed. I did find another similar claim for Uffz Rudolf Gerndt of 9./JG 5 grid 37Ost30323 for 24th January 1942. Everything appears correct, and fits in......except the year!
I am wondering if these claims should read 1943? Only other real possibility is that III./JG 5 was formed the same time as the other JG 5 Gruppen, but everything published/written says not.........but naturally mistakes are duplicated time and time again.

The grid references are no good to help as the front didn't really move, also each pilots rank doesn't help either, everything points to the year being wrong!
With Gerndt he as far as I can tell was always an Uffz, and moved around JG 5 a lot. Perhaps somebody can say when he joined JG 5.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S I have actually always thought the mikrofilm were typed/written towards the end of the war. The earlier typed ones often have confirmation dates for a year after the claim. Same should occur for the daily claims, especially if A.S.M. Last claim recorded at all is just one for 1st January 1945, which must have been written-up a little after that. Actually towards the end of 1944 units stopped being included on the daily claims list, with JG 5 this is October 1944, JG 5 made huge number of claims this month, but they are missing from the daily claims East sheet. In my opinion this suggests that the claims were sent to a central place(RLM) and that towards the end of 1944 they just were not getting through. With JG 5 the last claims against the Russians were in October 1944, and I guess they were leaving Finland.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Am still looking into this. Unlike the other Gruppen III./JG 5 earlier typed-out mikrofilm ended at the usual time i.e late July 1942 and from then on entries for this Gruppe were entered on the daily mikrofilm. The typed-out earlier version survives for 7./JG 5. Therefore if the Stab.III./JG 5 is as it should be in the same vein then Scholz claims past July 1942 should all be accounted for.

See Brian's e.mail of 9th December 2016 that I have restarted about Uffz Gast of 9./JG 5. Guess we need to keep digging.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S JG 5 recorded their crash-site grid references in several formats, i'll try to see if it can be chronological.

[andrus]

06.02.1942
3) Jagdeinsatz:
Jagdvorstösse und Begleitschutz blieben ohne Feindberührung. Begleitende Jäger griffen Barackenlager Südostspitze Tolwandsee erfolgreich mit Bordwaffen an.
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1 Aufklärungsflugzeug.
16 Kampfflugzeuge.
12 Jagdflugzeuge.