Major Walter Nowotny loss 8/11/44

[schwarze-man]

Major Walter Nowotny was killed on 8/11/44 at Epe, in his Me262. I have a copy of the encounter report by Richard W Stevens 2nd Lt, Air Corps 384th Ftr Sq that describes his claim against a 262 near Hesepe on that day, 8/11/44. There seems to be some conjecture about these events so, can anyone with detailed knowledge say anything detailed about this combat? Cheers

SM

[rof120]

This is not much but perhaps a start :

Firstly, Nowotny's death is a well-known episode, described many times afterwards.

Secondly, Adolf Galland, "General der Jagdflieger" (General of the Fighters or so) was visiting this airfield, this unit and in particular Nowotny, on this day. Unfortunately there was, it seems, a continuous cloud cover, not very high above ground (perhaps 1,000-3,000 meters, I don't know), so that he only could hear gunfire in the sky and see Nowotny's plane dive vertically out of the clouds until it hit the ground. He described this in his book "Die Ersten und die Letzten" (1953), in English "The First and the Last" (1954 if I remember correctly).

[schwarze-man]

Thanks rof! Yes, I had a read of the great Smith and Creek Me262 vol2 about the aspects of Kdo Nowotny. The text there includes parts of the P51 encounter report but, the actual report is complete. Is it worth me trying to thumbnail the encounter report on here?

SM

[rof120]

Sorry schwarze-man but I know almost nothing on Nowotny so I am not the expert you need.

If I understand you correctly you wonder if it's worth it posting a thumbnail here allowing everybody to read the comprehensive (complete, entire) report? Oh yes, certainly, many guys would be interested (including myself) or even extremely interested. Nowotny, aka "Nowi", is one of the top aces of WW II - as you know - and anything new on him will interest many persons. At the same time the shooting down of a Me 262 by a P-51 (or by a P-47 or a Tempest), in theory hardly possible, did happen quite a few times and the details are highly interesting indeed: how did Allied fighter pilots manage to "take" 262s?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by schwarze-man

Is it worth me trying to thumbnail the encounter report on here?

SM

Reports by Maurice and Stevens (384th FS) are online here: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...ice-8nov44.jpg

and here:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...ens-8nov44.jpg

[Alfred.MONZAT]

For Nowotny I think the problem is there is lots of Me 262 claims by Mustangs in the vicinity of where Nowotny went down. At least one can be ruled out as the gun cam show he shot at an empty Me 262 (the pilot already bailed out from a previous encounter). IIRC, Nowotny's victor had been narrowed to two 20th FG pilots but any new evidence would be interesting.

Originally Posted by rof120

At the same time the shooting down of a Me 262 by a P-51 (or by a P-47 or a Tempest), in theory hardly possible, did happen quite a few times and the details are highly interesting indeed: how did Allied fighter pilots manage to "take" 262s?

Even Typhoons shot down some

[VtwinVince]

That's true, my old friend Frank MacLeod was credited with a 262 whilst with 56 RAF.

[Allan125]

56 Squadron had been operating the Tempest V from June 1944, converting from the Spitfire IX, which they held from April to June 1944.

Before that they operated the Typhoon 1A, from September 1941, and then the Typhoon 1B from March 1942 until May 1944 (with an overlap with the Spitfire IX).

Therefore it is highly unlikely that they encountered an Me262 in a Typhoon, more likely with the Tempest V whilst operating from B.80 Volkel from 1 October 1944, having moved to mainland europe, B.60 Grimbergen, on 28 September 1944.

cheers

Allan

[schwarze-man]

Thanks Nick! My copy is identical to the Stevens one you show and it came as a copy of the one in the 384th memorial at Honnington. I was surprised that Smith and Creek didn't reproduce it in their book, although they did quote it almost verbatim. Cheers

SM

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Lieber Schwarze-man,

Some years ago I got in touch with Nowotny's brother, who wrote a book about his Luftwaffe hero and relative and start to dig out my own theories about the accident and his last combat sortie.

First of all, he was almost one year away from "Operational Combat Sorties" when he took command of Kommando Nowotny;
Second, I do not have his Flugbuchs to proove, but do guess that he did little flying during his time as Kommodore of JG 101 at Pau, in France...
Third, the TBO (Time Between Overhauls) for a JUMO-004B engine was (from memory, but it's quoted on several already published Me 262 books) something around 5-10 hours (so not a very trustful engine);
Fourth: We do not know how many flights and hours Nowotny had logged onto the Me 262 before putting it in action (I mean with the responsability of prooving the machine, prooving the theory that it was a "magic weapon" for the LW, etc.). I understand from reading (am not a military pilot myself, although a former commercial pilot), that to put or introduce a new machine in combat one need to be familiar with it...feel it and "vest it"...otherwise you won't be able to explore the 100% of it's capabilities...
Fifth: Galland and other High ranks visited his unit and criticized him for the lack of success...there was "high pressure from above for results". It seems that Nowotny went to bed late, due to those technical discussions...sadly there is no record of what was talked or discussed or if he was blamed for the lack of success, etc....
Sixth: With all that pressure, he tried to take-off but his tire blew-out (do not know which machine it was....one would need the records to check)...so he took another machine (werk 110400, code 8) and took-off LATE (again the pressure against him)....alone, to face what? More than hundreds of bombers and fighters....and hey, this wasn't Russia, where obtained his quick successes (some threads here on TOCH do talk about fake claims, etc...I will not enter this arena again, because Nowotny was one of my first heroes, when I started to read about WW2 Aviation some 29 years ago)...so this was the Reich Defence (in which Nowotny had no experience at all - comparing with other "old hands on this game").
What is known is that he was hit, his Me 262 plummeted to earth (maybe he was too quick or wounded to manage to bail out)...

Adriano