Fiat G.55 vs. ___________

[yogybär]

If the quotation from Peters is taken from the report 182/43 from 27.02.43, then it is unexact.

In that report, on page 3 it is stated, that

"
The Fiat G55 is on the same level as the german fighters concerning high-alt-climbrate. She is superior in weapons and range, but slower (25km/h at date), where one has to take into account that the italian DB605 provides 100PS less.
As the engineers stated that the DB603 can be installed without bigger modifications, the G55 gets very interesting because it would be superior in every aspect to all german fighters if equipped with DB603.
"

So, just another case of "what-if". And even with DB605 it doesn't play any decisive role, taken into account the little numbers in service.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

Veltro said, "...certainly not an overall best."

Nick, that is interesting. There is wide agreement that the Fiat G.55 was a better fighter than the Macchi Mc-205. Could you have mis-translated the word "tired"? Italy ceased to be an axis combatant country in September of 1943. The co-belligerant forces were just that, forces in parts of the country occupied by Germany. Italy was no longer an axis country. Yes, combat by the co-belligerant forces continued.

I think I translated the German "ein müder Schiff" correctly.

As for "Italy ceased to be a combatant country": (1) those were not the words used in the original post; (2) are you saying that the Repubblica Sociale Italiana did not imagine itself a legitimate national government, irrespective of its actual power?

[Ruy Horta]

Small comment from the moderator.

But what is it with these new members writing almost aggressively when they start on this forum?!

Also what is the purpose of the original post. Like the Pe-2 post we have what a question, a proposition or a challenge?

Have you made up your mind or do you want an open discussion?

You did some research online, so what's the next step?

If you like to argue about a/c performance you are better off at a flight sim forum.

[Graham Boak]

Wasn't Oberst Petersen a maritime specialist? Or was that a different Petersen? Not a name otherwise associated with fighter development, to the limits of my knowledge. He did have a command in the Rechlin structure, IIRC, so it probably is the same man.

Once we get to comparisons with DB603 we are in dream land. Each German manufacturer was desperate to get his hands on the DB603, and each believed that his fighter/bomber/zerstorer/aufklarer would be better than those currently in service, if only it had access to the supply of this more powerful engine. Probably correctly, but the engine was not fit for mass production and never reached more than a small fraction of the numbers desired. Had the engine been available in greater numbers there were many German types that would have had higher priorities than the Fiat.

Yes, a G.55 with the DB603 probably could have become a better aircraft than those in service in 1943 (though bear in mind that foreseen improvements often fail to materialise in hard engineering). However, this is hardly surprising, as the aircraft could not have become available in numbers before mid 1944 at the earliest, and has to be compared with aircraft available then or on offer in the same timescale. Particularly the Bf.109G-10 and K, the Me.209 and several options in the Fw.190/Ta.152 development line.

[veltro]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

To quote Stig Jarlevik, "I doubt you were one of the staff that tested the G.55"

I hope you are not offended if I take Oberst Petersen's word over yours, rendered from the keyboard on your desk.

To be offended? Certainly not. Surprised by your attitude, maybe... amused, perhaphs. I'll take again a discussion with you in twenty years from now hoping that you will spend them researching and maybe writing something interesting.

Until then, enjoy your stay.

[Squeelig]

Nick, the exact words were, "Italy left the field of combat in September of 1943."

I was referring to Italy as a combatant country. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

"are you saying that the Repubblica Sociale Italiana did not imagine itself a legitimate national government, irrespective of its actual power?"

It was not the legitimate Italian government. It was not the government that declared war on Britian and the USA. King Vittorio Emanuele III called Mussolini to his palace and stripped the dictator of his power. Upon leaving the palace, Mussolini was arrested. Mussolini was replaced by Badoglio who quickly signed an armistice with the allies. The co-belligerant force was a puppet regime installed by Hitler. I think you know that.

yogybär, do you know where I can get a hold of that report? Interesting that there appears to be a contradiction. I think it would be a good read and it appears to be highly relevant to this issue.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

Nick, the exact words were, "Italy left the field of combat in September of 1943."

It was not the legitimate Italian government ... The co-belligerant force was a puppet regime installed by Hitler. I think you know that.

The point is not what I know but how the RSI saw itself. Many rebel groups in history have firmly believed themselves to be the "real" government irrespective of their actual power.

Returning to aviation for a moment ... There are plenty of 1944 documents in the Bundesarchiv at Freiburg that refer to the ANR, the Hungarian MKHL and others as «verbündete Luftwaffe» which I read as "allied air force", i.e. the air force of a separate country. If you've read "Air War Italy 1944-45" (Beale, D'Amico & Valentini: Airlife 1996) you'll have seen how the Germans tried to incorporate the ANR into the Luftwaffe as an "Italian Air Legion" and failed.

[Squeelig]

Nick, have you read any of the documents (German) concerning replacement of the Bf-109 with the G.56? I wish I had them to scan and post.

Has anyone else seen them?

[Squeelig]

Someone asked who Oberst Petersen was. Oberst Edgar Petersen was the chief officer of the Luftwaffe's experimental aircraft testing facility at Rechlin.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Squeelig

Nick, have you read any of the documents (German) concerning replacement of the Bf-109 with the G.56? I wish I had them to scan and post.

Has anyone else seen them?

I think you mean replacement of the G.55 with the Bf 109 don't you, not the other way around?

This was research that I did with Ferdinando D'Amico and Gabriele Valentini in 1988-1993 (and they had worked on the ANR much earlier than that. I can't remember now what we had on that specific question but I think my friends are more likely to have the relevant material than me.

I remember orders (from September 1944, I think) we found at Freiburg to reconstitute the Italian Gruppi Caccia with Bf 109s. IIRC they didn't mention the G.55, just the Bf 109s. Anyone who has looked through the files of Luftwaffe Führungsstab documents for the months concerned will have seen this material - but they may not have been interested in it.

The Stab JG 77 KTB for 25 July 1944 (also at Freiburg) says:

"From 25 July I./JG77 and I./JG4 are to be withdrawn from operations. The aircraft will be handed over to II./JG77 and II/Ital. Jagdgruppe."