An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

I'm not sure that the Luftwaffe was so concentrated on the high score of his fighter pilots, my opinion is that book writers and readers are.

One deciphered signal from North Africa:

CX/MSS/1378
2. On morning 6/9, JG 27 sent the following report to AOC-in-C South, ((I))A:

Daily report on a/c shot down by fighter formations:
5/9/42:
(1) (Roman) I./27: 590 + 6. II./27: 473 + 3
(2) I./27: Obltn. Marseille, 131–134; Ltn. Stahlschmidt, 55–56
II./27: Hptm. Roedel, 53–55; Uffz. Schneider, 6

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

I'm not sure that the Luftwaffe was so concentrated on the high score of his fighter pilots, my opinion is that book writers and readers are.

The Luftwaffe flew far more ground attack missions than fighters ones. The activities by fighter bombers units (SG) has few covering, except for Chris Goss books, compared to the fighters ones. But even the fighters units were often ordered to attack ground targets rather than chasing enemy planes.

As for establishing the real score of German aces, some published works exist, but the task is just huge, no need of conspiracy to explain why it has not been done.

No one has suggested a conspiracy. The growing problem I see, not just about this but other subjects as well, is emotional demands. Common phrases include "it's been so long" or "we should know the truth." But the war generated millions of pages of documents from all sides. Russian files were inaccessible until relatively recently.

Here is an example about the Soviet Navy:

(From Amazon.)

"Seventy-five years after the end of the World War II the details of Soviet ships, their activities and fates remain an enigma to the West. In wartime such information was classified and after a brief period of glasnost (‘openness‘) the Russian state has again restricted access to historical archives. Therefore, the value – and originality – of this book is difficult to exaggerate. It sees the first publication of reliable data on both the seagoing fleets and riverine flotillas of the Soviet Navy, listing over 6,200 vessels from battleships to river gunboats, and mercantile conversions as well as purpose-built warships. Divided into three volumes, this first covers major surface warships down to MTBs and armored gunboats, as well as submarines. For every class there is a design history analyzing strategic, tactical, and technical considerations, and individual ship detail includes construction yard, key building dates, commissioning, fleet designations, relocations, and fate. Once a closely guarded secret, the wartime loss of every ship and boat (over one thousand) is described. Furthermore, the confusion caused by frequent name changes is clarified by an index that runs to sixteen thousand items. By following the ships through both their wartime and earlier history, the book reveals many aspects of Russian history that remain highly -sensitive: clandestine co-operation with Weimar Germany and fascist Italy, the NKVD-enforced closure of Soviet borders, the ‘Gulag Fleet‘, the faked Metallist sinking that excused the military occupation of Estonia, and the ill-conceived pact with Nazi Germany. Restrictions recently imposed on historical publications in Russia mean this book could certainly not have been published there – as proven by the fact that most of the authors' Russian collaborators preferred not to disclose their identities. This is undoubtedly one of the most important naval reference works of recent years and will be welcomed by anyone with an interest in warships, the Soviet Navy, or maritime aspects of World War II."

[VtwinVince]

We are being lied to massively, and in plain language, about all aspects of the current conflicts underway by the elites. So I'm not sure about the gist of this conversation.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

We are being lied to massively, and in plain language, about all aspects of the current conflicts underway by the elites. So I'm not sure about the gist of this conversation.

The gist of this conversation is whether there has been an accurate appraisal of one particular aspect of a conflict that ended in 1945. Conflicts are routinely lied about while they are underway, with luck historians eventually have the opportunity to offer something better.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

I'm not sure that the Luftwaffe was so concentrated on the high score of his fighter pilots, my opinion is that book writers and readers are.

The Luftwaffe flew far more ground attack missions than fighters ones. The activities by fighter bombers units (SG) has few covering, except for Chris Goss books, compared to the fighters ones. But even the fighters units were often ordered to attack ground targets rather than chasing enemy planes.

As for establishing the real score of German aces, some published works exist, but the task is just huge, no need of conspiracy to explain why it has not been done.

True, but IF the readings of the sources are correct, many of those ground attack missions were disrupted and aborted by Allied fighters, and prevented from causing TOO much damage to allied interests, while the same can't be said about the Axis fighter force.

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by NickM

True, but IF the readings of the sources are correct, many of those ground attack missions were disrupted and aborted by Allied fighters, and prevented from causing TOO much damage to allied interests, while the same can't be said about the Axis fighter force.

Without facts and sources, your comments do not add to the historical record.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by edwest2

Without facts and sources, your comments do not add to the historical record.

Sorry; I can only go by Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" where he reports multiple times Axis bombers had to dump their bombs (on their own troops, he said with notable delight) and make a run for it and the Shores books have a lot of Stuka missions where they have to dump their payloads to evade DAF fighters. Other than those, no other ones come to mind.

[edwest2]

I'll only add that B-17 bombers sometimes had to abort their missions. Dumping their bombs where they could to save weight due to flak and/or fighter damage. That way they could maintain altitude and limp back to their bases.

[NickM]

Sure, but more often than not, 'The Bombers always got thru' on the Allied side in the Western Desert AND over the supply convoys transporting fuel anod supplies to the Afrika Korp.

Of course, we have been 'thread jacked' off topic with the original 'final and real' count for the Luftwaffe's ace pilots

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by richdlc

Page 1 from an article by Dan Horvath in the upcoming AXIS WINGS VOLUME 5..

Can you please post a legibly sized screenshot? It's really small and impossible to read

Cheers