First kill with oblique cannon

[Smith]

I trust no one minds me reinvigorating an older thread. My interest in this stems from the fact that my Uncle, rear gunner in Lancaster EE147 of 619 squadron, lost his life over Peenemunde on 17/18 August 1943, in as yet unexplained circumstances (that's a whole other thread some day).

Martin Middlebrook alleges in his book about the raid that this night was the first in which Schräge Musik was used "operationally" by which I suspect he means "not experimentally", and I note above Tony, you (and your co-author Emmanuel Gustin) argue that proposition a little differently, as Schräge Musik having "a good opportunity to prove itself".

I note also on another thread hereabouts (RodM re. Ultra) that (RAF) aircraft damaged by upward directed fire were assumed to have been damaged by light flak.

And Hinchcliffe in his book "The Other Battle" discusses the 'scarecrow' phenomenon reported by crews (large fires and explosions in the bomber stream) as most likely being aircraft burning then exploding as a result of Schräge Musik attacks. But this being misconstrued as above.

My question ... was Schräge Musik operational for the best part of two years without the RAF being at all aware of it ? What a coup.

Don

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by smidon

My question ... was Schräge Musik operational for the best part of two years without the RAF being at all aware of it ? What a coup.

Another quote from FG:WW2

"The RAF has been criticised for its slowness in identifying the cause of these losses and finding some countermeasure. In Luftwaffe circles it was assumed that Schräge Musik would be of value only as long as the RAF was unaware of its existence, a consideration which prompted a panic when, on 28 April 1944, a Bf 110G with oblique cannon and Lichtenstein SN‑2 radar landed in Switzerland. (A deal was reached in which the Swiss were sold 12 Bf 109G‑6 fighters for a price of six million francs, and the aircraft was destroyed.) As mentioned above, there was a long history of experiments with upward-firing firing guns in Britain, and even some operational use. It should not have been a surprise that the Germans would employ a similar weapons system. On the other hand, this knowledge alone would not have produced an effective countermeasure. If the crews of Bomber Command were unaware of the existence of Schräge Musik right until the end of the war, the cause is probably that those in higher ranks felt that no useful purpose was served by informing them."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[George Hopp]

Interesting thought on the Bf 110G with the oblique cannon that landed in Switzerland at 02:17 on 28 April 1944. But, I doubt that Lw Headquarters was even aware that the a/c had those cannon, since they were unit-built and so not on any official inventory. At the time they were concerned about the FuG 220 radar that had just been installed in that a/c, and which was not being jammed by the British.

In fact, it would not be until August 1944 that the 1st Bf 110 with the production oblique cannon unit would roll off the production lines. The unit-built oblique cannon a/c, Bf 110 G-4, Wr. 6309, had gone to GWF on 30 Nov 43, and was generally damned, and the 1st prototype installation was ready only on 5 May 44. Although all this was very slow, one must consider that the Bf 110 had very limited space to house any more equipment, whereas both the Do 217 and the Ju 88 had only to use a part of their large fuselages to house the cannon. Does anyone know when these a/c first used oblique cannon?

[Chris Goss]

I interviewed a Flt Cdr from 102 Sqn who was convinced in September/October 1943 that the Germans were getting adept at shooting down bombers from underneath at an oblique angle and is convinced that his demise on 22 Oct 43 was due to such a weapon

[Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

I interviewed a Flt Cdr from 102 Sqn who was convinced in September/October 1943 that the Germans were getting adept at shooting down bombers from underneath at an oblique angle and is convinced that his demise on 22 Oct 43 was due to such a weapon

Yes, there are many such quotes.

It's also instructive to read Professor Freeman Dyson's recollections of his time serving in the Operational Research Section of Bomber Command. He says they found out too late to do anything about it (implying very late indeed) and missed two critical clues, namely:
(1) that there was no link between experience and loss rates
(2) that attacks were occuring "without warning"
http://www.technologyreview.com/InfoTech/17724/

What seems to have happened is that there were operational personnel, both aircrew and ground staff, who became aware that nightfighters were attacking RAF bombers from underneath. A handful of aircraft survived attacks (bear in mind the effectiveness of this weapon) and evidence of upward directed cannon fire was noted. Some measures were adopted operationally (eg. stopping removal of FN64 ventral turrets in Lancaster BII's, and even provision of ventral viewing windows).

However I have yet to see evidence that ...
(a) it was appreciated that what they were up against was a purpose built weapon and tactics
(b) Bomber Command or any other official agency (ie. not at the operational level) knew about it
(c) any official counter measures measures or even investigation was undertaken
(d) any sort of official communique or warning was issued

other online reading
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=67563
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.u...rage_musik.htm

Don

[George Hopp]

I would have been back sooner but it took some time to find Rudolf Schoenert's letter about the Schräge Musik matter. I eventually found it in the Juli/August 1967 issue of Jägerblatt. In it he states his involvement in the development of that weapons system. It may not answer all questions that have been put forward about this matter, but hopefully it will help.

I should say that the background to Schoenert's letter was a short article in the Juni 1967 issue of Jägerblatt by Dieter Herwig of the Deutsches Studienbüro für Luftfahrt, in which he stated that the German oblique armament development was based on information supplied by Comdr. Nagamori during his visit to Germany in 1944 (having come by U-boat).

According to Schoenert's letter, the first time oblique armament was proposed for the Luftwaffe was in a letter he sent to General Kammhuber in August 1941. But, when General Kammhuber discussed this matter with "the most successful night fighers Lent and Streib" they rejected the idea for different reasons. After that, nothing happened until July 1942 when at a presentation to him of the Knight's Cross, Schoenert again tried to win over General Kammhuber to his idea. As a result of this, the General approved the equipping of 3 Do 217s with this armament for Schoenert's Staffel.

So, in the autumn of 1942, at the weapons test centre at Tarnewitz, a test rig with a weapon firing upwards at 90 degrees was tested and achieved more than 90% hits on a sleeve target in flight. It turned out, however, that aiming the weapon upwards at 90 degrees was very uncomfortable for the pilot because pulling his head back to the angle necessary to aim the weapon disrupted his sense of equilibrium and led to incorrect steering movements. An angle of incidence of the weapons of 65 degrees was found to be a suitable solution. The Dornier works then equipped 3 Do 217s with four, or six, oblique-firing MG 151s, rigidly mounted in the bomb bay area. In early 1943 these a/c were delivered to the unit.

When a Waffen-Oberfeldwebel of II./NJG 5 in Parchim saw his Kommandeur's Do 217 equipped with oblique armament, he came up with the idea of inserting a comparable twin MG-FF unit in the rear part of the cabin of an Me 110. Difficulties caused by trying to mount a gunsight in the small area between the head of the pilot and the canopy, were solved together by the Waffen-Oberfeldwebel and his Kommandeur (Schoenert used the third person designation for himself and others throughout his letter). The "home-built" prototype built in the workshops at Parchim was so good that the Kommandeur arranged, in secret and without informing the RLM, to reequip the entire Gruppe in the Parchim workshops. Nevertheless the news of this new weapon got around, and so Me 110 aircraft of other units of the Nachtjagd were reequipped at Parchim. The name "Schräge Musik" was introduced for security purposes. Even the protruding barrels of the 2 cm cannon were desguised as antenna mounts and equipped with phony antennas. (I think that the secrecy was to avoid the red tape that would flow from the RLM when this unauthorized modification was discovered.)

The first German victory with "Schräge Musik" was obtained with one of the Do 217 aircraft in May 1943 during an RAF attack on Berlin (as there don't appear to have been any RAF attacks on Berlin in May 1943, I go back to Rick's comments about a Schoenert victory on 21 Apr 43 during an RAF attack Stettin and Rostock, and am thinking that Schoenert's memory failed him on the date of the victory. By the way, do you have a list of Schoenert's victories, Rick? If so would it be possible to get a copy?). The pilot who took off from Parchim on this night was the same person who had made the initial proposal to General Kammhuber in August 1941. So, all this information was available a long time before the visit of Comdr. Nagamori in 1944.

Schoenert noted that the RAF had a sort of "Schräge Musik" in the form of its Defiant, in which the a/c would sneak beneath a German bomber, and the observer would aim the guns of his turret upwards and "saw" off the wings of the German bomber. There were also reports of English fighter pilots mounting machine guns that fired upwards during the First World War.

In closing, he said that it appeared that the "Schräge Musik" was invented in different countries, at different times, independently of each other. So it was nearly impossible to determine who actually invented the "Schräge Musik."

In the October 1967 issue of Jägerblatt, Dieter Herwig noted the following: French Nieuport Scouts of 1915 were equipped with upward firing machine guns. In addition, in reading through the documents of the "Bordwaffen und Sonderwaffen" unit of the RLM (TRL/G1-E-6a) it was found that the Reichswehr had even before 1933 at its test centre in Lipezk, near Moscow, armed Rohrback Rolands with various types of armament, including oblique weaponry.

Hope this helps,
George

[Tony Williams]

Thanks George, interesting post.

The British certainly made use of upward-firing guns in WW1. The unsynchronised Lewis gun fitted on a Foster mount to the top wing of many fighters could be pulled downwards to enable the pilot to change the magazine. This action tilted the gun to point upwards. This was made use of by pilots to shoot upwards, especially when attacking airships.

The first 37mm COW gun installation, in a few DH.4 planes, was also upward-firing, but only a couple of these reached the front by the end of WW1.

Between the wars, the British issued a specification for fighters equipped with upward-firing 37mm guns, and two competing 'COW gun fighters' were built in 1931, by Vickers and Westland. Experiments with upward-firing Lewis guns fitted to Bulldog fighters went on in the mid-1930s.

Finally, in 1941 the British modified a Douglas Havoc to carry six remotely-controlled .303 MGs in a roof mounting: they were normally concealed by "upside-down bomb-bay" doors in the roof, and their angle of elevation could be altered between 30 and 50 degrees.

None of this experimentation led to any service use, however, except incidentally for the Defiant as you mentioned.