IL-2 vs JG 54.

[Juha]

Hello Eugen
from the tread Kari gave:

“according to the book by Hannu Valtonen ("Lento-osasto Kuhlmey", based on Bundesarchiv documents) Hptm Herbert Aloe (FW 190A-6, "white 2", WNr 501214) disappeared at 13.40 8 km NNE Viipuri…

…Aloé was last heard when he reported that he was in air combat with enemy fighters…

…Hptm. Aloé also had lost contact to his wingman Fw. Huss in an earlier skirmish before he began his last combat with Soviet fighters...”


So place is OK, I cannot say nothing on the time but problem is that in his last message Aloé reported that he was in combat with fighters. He had also lost contact with his wingman.

Of course it is possible that after the skirmish with fighters Aloé met some Fw 190s and then attacked Il-2s with them but IMHO before drawing conclusion it would be good to check were there any fighter claims over the area.

Juha

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hero of the Soviet Union, guardian Kapitan Chekin Boris Sergeevich.
http://ilpilot.narod.ru/man/hsu/h/chekin.html

His combat report:
http://www.avia.ru/especial/sokols/attack/sto_328.shtml

Actually, interview of Tikhomirov includes two episodes where Il-2 are mentioned:

21 06 1944, when he shot down Knoebel escorting IL-2's from 35 ShAP.

24 10 1944, when witness of fight from his 12 IAP saw bloody picture how do 2 Fw190 were eliminated bu 23mm VYa guns of IL-2's from 35 ShAP. I'll translate it a bit later. Very impressive story.

Also, we have claim of Chekin over Fw190 over Viipuri on 21 06 1944. JG 54 loss list show only 2 Fw190 lost. It means, that Aloe COULD be victim of Chekin's gunner.

Any sourses about Aloe's last fight?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by Juha

Of course it is possible that after the skirmish with fighters Aloé met some Fw 190s and then attacked Il-2s with them but IMHO before drawing conclusion it would be good to check were there any fighter claims over the area.

Juha

Oh, oki I saw it. Now... Hmmm...

Chekin say that he had no escort. Hmmm.... I am confuzed - aactually reports of IL-2 about combats vs german fighters are very clear and overclaim is misnimal, instead of fighters.

All 4 crews of Il-2 saw crashed Fw190, and claim was confirmed and added to his score.

But now I dont know... There were full schwarm attacking Chekin's flight. So, nothing seem like "lost kontakt with wingman" or so...

Where we can check original Aloe's radiomessage?

Did he say: "Fighers" or just "Bandits"?

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Eugen's first posts left Chekin's unit unknown (given only after my first reply) and the only ShAP unit given was 35 ShAP at the end. Therefore I jumped into wrong conclusion of Chekin's unit.

If Chekin was from 566 ShAP then they most certainly were not escorted by 12 IAP and perhaps by no-one then as the pilot says. 566 ShAP was Army unit ( 13th Air Army, 277 ShAD) and 12 IAP from Baltic Fleet.

But it looks like both units (12 IAP & 566 ShAP) were at the same place at the same time. Koivisto is a cape so very much KBF aviation "playground".

I would also like to point out that I called for comparison of the events described and I did not state anything.

Kari


PS Check this interactive map of sunken ships - it includes also planes and couple of tanks!:
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/ma...?mid=3&Ing=RUS

The map is clickable and zoomable.
It looks like there is a Fw 190 found near Koivisto. If not familiar, map of the Viipurinlahti Bay area (with some names) can be found for example here:
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/Misc/Maps/Viipurinlahti.gif
(Finnish Navy mainpage at: http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/index.htm )

[yogybär]

Very interesting report! Thanks!

Concerning this:

Originally Posted by Eugen Gross

The report of Tikhomirov is about figh on 24 10 1944, when 2 Fw190 were shot down by IL-2 of 35 ShAP KBF during mission at 12:37 - 15:46, over Baltic Sea. It seems for me that was Fw190 from II./JG 54, there are some maches in JG 54 losslist.
Seems to be:
Grießl Julius Ofhr. Fw190A-6 550880 ? sw 14 + 100% 20km NO von Vainode
Carstens Werner Fhr. Fw190A-6 530348 ? ge 8 + 100% 5km nördl. Vainode

Vainode is inside Kurland (Latvia), ca. 40km away from the Baltic Sea. So, these two losses do definitely not fit to the claims by 35ShAP.

[Juha]

Eugen: “Where we can check original Aloe's radiomessage? Did he say: "Fighers" or just "Bandits"?”

A very good question. Unfortunately, I cannot answer it. I don’t have original documents, only Valtonen’s narrative of them. Valtonen’s source is WASt. II./JG 54/1/Aloé/21.6.1944.

And this is what is in Valtonen’s book.
“At 13.40 St.Kap. 4. Staffel, Hptm. Herbert Aloé, FW 190 A-6, “weiss 2”, WNr. 501214… 21.6.1944 at 13.00 took off 6 FW 190s under Hptm. Aloé’s leadership for Freie Jagd over Viipuri. There they got into aerial battle with Il-2s, during which Rotte Aloé – Fw. Huss got separated. A little later Hptm. Aloé reported that he was in aerial combat with enemy fighters. Hptm. Aloé didn’t return from the sortie…He was seen last time 8km NNE Viipuri at 13.40 at 100m.”

HTH
Juha

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi guys!
Firstly: amazing reading! Quite fantastic and with the diagrams made by the Russian IL-2 pilot! Wonderful thread...congratulatios to both of you!
Secondly: Was the Fw 190 found on the lake recovered? It could answer a lot of questions to us if any clue of werknummer or identity could be salvaged...Any news on this Fw 190 from the lake?
I will keep reading your threads...simply fantastic!
Thanks again - in the name of all fond of military history!
Adriano

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi guys!

THX for all Your replyes!

I have no much free time to translate ALL docs and other things (because I've just returned from hospital, hardly avoiding leg amputation - now its ok, I healed it), but I'll do my best.

2 yogybär: thx for enclose the location. Tikhomirov says:

-----------
" In october 44 we were transferred to Pyarnu for taking art in liberation of isles Esel and Dago. Once a time - I was not in that mission but witness sayd to me - pair of Fw190 attacked a formation of IL-2's on alt 500m.
..........
This time "Fokke's" exit from attack in front of Il-2's, and it was need only to press the buttons.

Leading Fw190 was hit by several 23mm shells in fuzelage and wings and exploded so hard that left visible only huge cloud of smoke and falling part of tail with tailwheel.

His wingmen was hit by only one 23mm shell straight in cockpit, and began fast climbing. Pilot, who told me this story - followed him in climb and going to attack - but when he enclose to Fw190 - he saw terrible picture: board of fuzelage was gone, cockpitglass was throun away, and inside the cock was bloody smash mixed pieses of body and parts of interior...He was so amaized that could not shoot, and uncontrolled Fw190 made 2-3 loops and spinned into sea..."
--------------
The comments says: This combat took place 24 10 44, when during combat mission 12:37 - 15:46, IL-2 pilots claimed 2 x Fw190 shot down: Ltn.Gavrilov (personal) and serjants Bochkaryov and Solov'yov (shared).

About Aloe - it need to ask Owl99 to know may be any VVS fighters claims in that area...

took off 6 FW 190s under Hptm. Aloé’s leadership for Freie Jagd over Viipuri.

Chekin reports say: 4 Fw190... Hmm, I dont know what it means really. Another group of 4 x Fw190? Same group but without Aloe Rotte?

BTW: about "fw190 in the lake" - my friend have some relations with russian "black diggers". I dont like them because of various things, but... Once he told me that they found Fw190 in river WSW from my sity (prev.name - Stalingrad). It is Fw190 for sure - they took part of control stick, and piece of V-Stab. Anyway - they bury pilot, and for THIS I may say - I am not angry on them. Because almost all other "BD" dont care about it. It seems for me that that Fw190 could be from Schl.G 1 or something..

[Evgeny Velichko]

About fight on 24 10 44:

Here is a map of Moonsund Desant Operation (in russian):

27 09 44 - 24 11 44.

Isles: Dago - Hiyumaa, Esel - Saaremaa.

Is Vainode somwhere in that area?

http://velikvoy.narod.ru/karta/front...d_desant-1.gif

May be sombody have better map, in english?

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Eugen Gross

Isles: Dago - Hiyumaa, Esel - Saaremaa.

Is Vainode somwhere in that area?

No. Latvia has no islands, they all belong to Estonia.

There is something little about Vainode at Latvian aviation homepage (inlcuding simple map of the location):

http://latvianaviation.com/Aero_Vainode.html

Latvian aviation mainpage:
http://latvianaviation.com/


Cheers,
Kari