Fw 190 A-8, I./JG 301

[WEISNER]

No "LAZY" research done there Harold, I have seen other photos in Jerrys collection of the Same Flip Flop of colors on known JG301 aircraft, and say to you to Wait and purchase Vol I of his Dora book where all this confusion? is put to rest in my opinion. there are also photos of Chevron 4 Fw 190 A-8 of Stab, I./JG301 with Yellow red band on page 286 of the Classic book, Defending the Reich 1944-1945 by Robert Forsyth.
Kevin

[ChrisS]

Well, just to muddy the water Rafiger, when skinning for IL-2, has interpreted the number as Rote 9 .....

[WEISNER]

Very nice Chris, Love the look even though it should be Blue?! If 4th Staffel?
K

[S Sheflin]

I just got back to this thread and it seems as if I’ve missed a good one. With a few small exceptions, I agree with everything Jerry says regarding the reversed RV bands of I./JG 301. As result of my lazy research, I have documented the following I./JG 301 Fw 190 As with reversed Red/Yellow RV bands:

A-8, 737939, 9+ Bk o/l W, “Die Starke Mann” logo
A-8, <4+ Bk o/l W
A-8, 5+ W, Color photographs
A-8?, 6+ Bk o/l W
A-8?, 9+ Bk o/l W, Not the same aircraft as 737939 above
A-8?, UNK, In a lineup of at least 15 Fw 190 Fs at Ansbach.

First, regarding the existence of two I./JG 301 Fw 190s marked 9+, Jerry is correct; these are definitely two separate aircraft. However, Jerry says they are marked “Blue 9.” Until now, I thought they also carried white outlined black markings, and eagerly await any evidence Jerry may have refuting my belief. Interestingly, the only plane in my list without black outlined plane numbers is 5+ W.

So far, the only photos of JG 301 aircraft with the reversed Red/Yellow RV bands all come from I./JG 301. We have examples of II./JG 301 Fw 190 As and D-9s with 2. Gruppe bars and regulation Yellow/Red RV bands, but none with the reversed bands. Perhaps Jerry or someone else has discovered reversed examples from other JG 301 Gruppen, but I have yet to see any. Again, I look forward to further evidence.

Jerry’s stunning statement that he has spoken to JG 301 veterans who clearly recall repainting ex. JG 11 aircraft by adding a red band forward on an existing yellow band, is strong evidence indeed. However, it also raises an interesting question. Why didn’t the unit just paint the red band over the rear of the existing yellow band? One possibility might be that the JG 11 planes carried non-standard (less that 900 mm) narrow RV bands. Another possibility is that they did it on purpose.

R. Bueschel’s beautiful photo set of JG 11’s A-8 10+ Bk, WNr. 380352, also carries the “Starke Mann“ crest. While not absolute proof of the thesis, it is yet another piece of evidence for the idea that aircraft so marked originally came from JG 11 and were expeditiously remarked by I./JG 301; adding a red band over the existing yellow band.

Finally, I do have color photos of an Fw 190 A-8 that clearly carries a two part RV band with red forward and yellow aft. If this is not a JG 301 marking, then what is it? I am not dogmatic on these questions and eagerly welcome other explanations.

Regards,

Steve Sheflin

[Harold Lake]

Jerry Crandall's prima-facie evidence is certainly the sort of recollectiion historians relish. Yet, without intentionally casting a disparaging shadow, we must fairly ask ourselves if this revelation (and implied conclusion) is absolute? By that, I mean can we find supporting evidence whereby one could positively verify this assertion by matching a photo of a known airfraft's serial number with the so-called "reverse" bands, to an official manifest, combat or loss report, repair order, or log book?

Thus far, all we apparently have is the werknummern for ONE Fw 190 with these curious bands. And according to some, this machine like the one in the Bueschel photos (W.Nr. 380352, blk 10), had "The Fighter" unit emblem of JG 11. Incidentially, this emblem was inspired by the well known bas-relief sculpture, created by Arno Breker, whoes work adorned the Reichschancellery.

Furthermore, is there an official reference linking either W.Nr. 737938 or 380352 with JG 301? Gentlemen tHAT is the question. And what of Steve Sheflin's photos which reportedly show several Fw 190s with these "reverse" bands? Again, without a serial number to trace back to an official record, or spot a known pilot or other personality in, or next to, one of these aircraft, how can one honestly say, beyond doubt, these machines belong to JG 301? This is not merely a pejorative question but one that hits the core of thoroughly solid research.

[David E. Brown]

Hello Harold,

Regarding your comments, I believe that in circumstances such as these, we are dealing with probabilities versus certainties.

In some instances, documentary evidence can confirm without a doubt the unit / pilot identities, etc. This is generally the situation during the early and middle war periods where these documents exist. During the last year, and indeed months of the war, the probability of documents existing, and indeed being generated, decreased. Adherence to regulations also showed a commensurate decline.

What the researcher is left with are fragments of official documents and unit histories, photographs, wreck fragments and narratives from the people who were there. As Jerry will confirm through his many years of interactions with pilots of all nations, these cannot be trusted implicitly, but are nonetheless extremely valuable sources of information. They can provide the keys to explaining other observations and can in many cases by verified through other sources and data. The key is to weigh the probabilities of occurrence / existence against realities, both perceived (as in orders from higher comments), and actual (those of the people actually living and dealing with the extant situations). As stresses and chaos went up, organization went down and thus probabilities of exceptions to the rules increased.

A particular example directly relevant to this discussion is worthy on note.

Luftwaffe bomber units, and to a lesser extent the Stuka units, are well known for their strict adherence to markings rules and regulations for such things as unit codes, individual aircraft letters, crests and insignia, bands on spinners and so forth, all having varying colour combinations reflecting specific staffeln and gruppen. There were variations between the respective geschwaders, but these were not great. Now, let’s consider the bomber units that converted to fighters, by this I mean those that were being converted to the Me 262 for use in the fighter role: Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) 6, 27 and 54.

Sometime in mid-March 1945, their aircraft began to appear with multicoloured tail bands that mimicked those used by the Jagdgeschwadern whose use was officially promulgated a month earlier. While no official document exists stated which units wore which bands, photographic and narrative evidence confirms that the units had checkered tailbands: KG 6 = red & black, KG 27 = green & white, and KG 54 = blue and white. While in almost all cases the photographs are black and white, unit crests will confirm the unit identification, and comparative analysis of the bands against known colours (e.g., maintenance markings, other aircraft, etc.) will confirm colours.

OK, so where is this leading? Simply this. These units, but particularly III./KG(J) 54 showed variability not just in the colour layout in the checkerbands, but in the shape and dimensions of the bands themselves. Indeed, I have documented four (4) different styles unit bands seen on the Bf 109s (1) and Me 262s (3) of just the III. Gruppe. Two styles are seen in I./KG(J) 54 planes, and two styles for the aircraft of III./KG(J) 6 (which, by the way, did NOT wear III. gruppe horizontal bars). This from bomber units that rigidly and slavishly followed markings conventions and protocols for almost six years, but events and the desperate late-war conditions drove them to expediency and thus introduced unorthodox makings styles. But note that the colours were always right, it was just the positions (and proportions / dimensions) that changed.

That a fighter unit would do the same under the same circumstances was inevitable. Yellow / red or red / yellow, it didn’t make a difference as long as the right colours were there. Indeed, I believe that when one studies the famous RV markings order, even if colours on bands were reversed, that colour COMBINATION was the important thing. That is why there bands with single, double and triple stripes. While the style was prescribed, the system was set up such that it was the COLOUR COMBINATION that mattered. Even when mistakes in heirarchy and order were made, the combination stayed the same. Always.

Another point. The location where these aircraft were found can also offer supporting evidence. Aircraft found at former bases of departed units have a good probability of having been associated with that unit. Its a starting point, but a good one. Other evidence can either support this or not. Documentray evidence is out there that I./JG 11 did transfer aircraft to I./JG 301. We don't know which ones, but that they did do so. I am certain when Jerry publishes his JG 301 opus that much of this information will be provided in this regard that will assist in identifying various aircraft.

Again, we are dealing with probabilities, not absolutes. The wise researcher recognises this and accepts that in many cases that this is as good as it gets. There exist other explanations for the identity of this or that, but their probabilities would be much lower or not mack any sense. While something could exist based on one piece of evidence, others would discount or eliminate that probability.


So, based on the available narrative, photographic, documentary and other evidence, I concur with Jerry, Erich and Steve that the probability is very high, not absolute, not without a doubt, but very high that Blue 9 with the reversed yellow and red tailband was an aircraft with 4./I./JG 301.

Cheers,

David

[WEISNER]

If Not with 4./I.JG301, Or Jg 301 for that matter? I sure would LOVE to hear your theroy of what Geschwader carried this RED/YELLOW band David? as it would surly be a new unidentified Geschwader?....

Even the old Walk Around book gives the same theroy of JG11 birds transfered to 301, Or in the case of W.Nr. 737938 the fighter was originally assigned to III./JG11 and sustained damage on Jan 23,1945, was repaired and assigned to JG301 resulting in the reverse application of the JG301 RVT Band.
Kevin

[David E. Brown]

Dear Kevin,

Did you not read what I wrote above?

I believe, based on the available evidence, that in all probability this aircraft was with JG 301. This is in concurance with comments by fellow researchers Jerry, Steve and others on the unit identification.

I argue, clearly, that the colour combination was the most important factor, not its design / heirarchy. No where did I suggest that there could have been another geschwader with these two colours. How did you read into this that I did?

Regarding your second point, I don't understand what you are implying / inferring. The so-called 'old' Squadron book (2000) got its information from the back of the photo that Jim Crow sent them and wrote on. He could not recall the source of his information from the 1970s. But it is verified in Prien and Rodeike's book on JG 1 & 11 (volume 3) based on primary sources. Look it up.

Please get a cup of coffee, settle down and re-read my previous message. It is all very clear.

Cheers,

David

[O.Menu]

Some thoughts about JG301 fuselage markings

A/. What we know?

GeschwaderStab probably got a blue horizontal bar. Ok, I know we are not so many to think about that up to now but I m pretty sure Jerry Crandall will confirm this in September in his so awaited books about Fw 190D-9 (see there http://www.eagle-editions.com/dorabook.htm )

For sure the awaited usual JG301 fuselage band with the usual no additional marking behind the fuselage Balkencross for the first group was very rare:
We know Fw190A yellow 17 or blue 7 and Fw190D yellow (or blue?) 15.

On the other side II./JG301 horizontal bar was pretty common and existed at least in white and red, and over Fw190A as well as D9.

III./JG301 markings are pretty unknown.

IV./JG301 markings are also pretty unknown, except from one Bf 109 with an horizontal bar published inside W.Retscke’s book


B/. First explanation: each groups had an horizontal bar fuselage marking with corresponding colour for each groups!

ie: blue for Stab./JG301, white for I./JG301, red for II./JG301, yellow for III./JG301, green for IV./JG301.

(See older post fromDec 2004 there: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=547&highlight=extraordinary and an update there: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=547&highlight=extraordinary )


C/. Recent evolution:

Now thanks to Steve Sheflin we know for sure from colour pictures that reversed JG301 fuselage band had really existed and so they are not JG5 fuselage band as firstly though from B&W photos. It’s also interesting to note that one of those also show a JG11 emblem on its fuselage side.


D/.New possibilities:

a/ .We not facing I./JG301 airplanes then colour specific horizontal bar for each group hypothesis keep valid.

Argument for I./JG301 don’t got reverse markings and thus that it could be another unit:
- “chevron4” is not the awaited StabI./JG301 marking since GeschwaderStab (Ta152 green 1,2, 3…), Stab II./JG301 (green7 and possibly green 20) and Stab IV./JG301 (green 21) were all using green digits. This chevron like marking is an older kind of markings pretty uncommon in late stage of the war.
- This reversed RV seems to have been found strangely only in South/Central Germany/Europe [ Fürth, Ansbach, Straubing, Langensalza, Czechoslovakia ] when I./JG301 was fighting on the North since end of August 1944 [ Salzwedel, Finsterwalde, Hagenow then Leck ]! ! ! Strange not?
- There is a JG11 emblem visible over one airplane, so those airplanes could have been from I./JG11 instead of JG301. Could have it been temporary JG11 markings? Imho probably not since at Leck surrender it seems that JG11 airplanes simply no more used their JG11 yellow fuselage band.
- The reverse fuselage band thesis destroyed the group color specific horizontal bar theory except if one follow the other in the time. Ok, that not an argument J

In any case this reversed fuselage band doesn’t look as a ‘lazy’ figure painted over JG11 aircraft to me but far more as a voluntary painting used for all the group. Firstly because of its large JG11 yellow fuselage band it is not easier to paint the red one in front than in backward position and secondly if it was, we must have seen more than one or two airplanes with usual JG301 band especially since it seems that when it was disbanded III./JG301 give its Fw190 to I./JG301.

b/. We are facing I./JG301 airplanes,

Argument for I./JG301 got reversed markings:
- It is doubtful that two different units could have used so similar markings
- It seems that I./JG301 veterans remember to have used reversed fuselage marking.
- JG 301 and JG 11 could have kept some relation ship from the time they shared their airplanes for JG301 “wildesaw” experiment?
- Different kinds of I./JG301 markings could have succeeded one to the other in the time, but then in which order?
- Jerry Crandall and David E. Brown are working over JG301 unit and they support this theory.

then there is 2 possibilities:

* The two kinds of markings, white horizontal bar and no bar, succeed one to the other in the time inside I./JG301. The non horizontal bar supposed to be an older markings since all those airplanes had be seen from South or Central Germany or Czechoslovakia when I./JG301 end the war on North Germany. I must say that this thesis stay my favourite one up to now!

*Or both I and II./JG301 aircrafts could have been separated in two sub-groups with different kind of markings inside each sub-group, perhaps to make easiest distinction between their 2 heavies and 2 lights Staffeln or to group together one heavy and one light staffel.

GeschwaderStab > green + blue horizontal bar [see NASM Ta 152 restoration]

I./JG301 Stab > chevron + reversed RV [see chevron4]

1./JG301 > full white + reversed RV [see white 5, Furth?]
2./JG301 > outlined black + reversed RV [see black9 and black 6, Furth?]

3./JG301 > outlined yellow + usual RV [see yellow 17, Czechoslovakia]
4./JG301 > outlined blue + usual RV [see blue 7 and D9 blue or yellow 15, Staubing (or Langensalza?)]


II./JG301 Stab > unknown but possibly green 7 + red horizontal bar [posted on the LEMB from a video tape, unknown place]

5./JG301 > white + red horizontal bar [see white 21 or D9 white 12, Langensalza]
6./JG301 > red + red horizontal bar [see red 22, Langensalza ]

7./JG301 > yellow + white horizontal bar [see yellow 8, Salzwedel ]
8./JG301 > blue + white horizontal bar [see blue? 20 in Barbas book, unknown place]


III./JG301 > was a full heavy group but with unknown markings up to now it was disbanded before the end of war and so there is no photos available.

IV./JG301 > was also disbanded before the war end and only very few photos are available.

Indeed one or 2 photos shows Bf 109G-10 with an horizontal bar but this is perhaps after disbanded IV./JG301 had moved most of her Bf 109 to II./JG301… But since this horizontal bar seems to be from a different tone than the red from the fuselage band, I still think it’s a green one, the one I suppose to be specific from IV./JG301.


E/ Conclusion:

Make your own choice, until we know more… Can’t wait up to September2007… J


Cheers, Olivier.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by David E. Brown

Dear Kevin,

Did you not read what I wrote above?
David

Your friendly neighbourhood moderator writes...

I didn't read Kevin's post as responding to your (eminently sensible) one, David. I think it was in answer to Harold.