II.JG1

[RT]

Regarding this group nd the action during Normandy campaign, some question raise, the group on 6.june start from Störmede made some stop at Montdidier, then after a night there arrive at Le mans on 7.june, nd started immediatly "for the beach" at 05h00 , during this action Hptm Weber lost his life, schedule looks very tight , or....

Further Ofhr Kaatz was killed in action against the Canadians on 28.th or 29.th ???

Remi

[Andreas Brekken]

Only aircraft loss on given dates are one MIA on 28.06.1944, non-officer.

I am sure that someone with access to NVM's for JG 1 will sort this out, and it is probably in the Prien volumes on JG1/11, but I am not at home now to look it up.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Grzegorz Cisek]

Hptm. Karl-Heinz Weber was killed in action on June7 1944 as a III./JG 1 Gruppenkommandeur (Bf 109G-6/AS 410399) in cobat with P-47 over Caen. According Mombeek's JG 1 on June 7, II./JG 1 lost 3 FW 190 in combat (at least one over Le Mans). I suppose that the morning fight refered to 7./JG 1 which was operationally included to II./JG 1. Lt. Johann Brunnler lost his life in this combat with Mustangs over Chateaudun.

Ofhr. Aloysius Katz of 5./JG 1 lost his life on June 28 (FW 190 A-8 "black 7" 680523) in combat with Spitfires over Flers area.

[Franek Grabowski]

Weber was downed over Rouen by 315 Sqn, most likely by F/L Janusz Marciniak.

[RT]

Quite interesting, Andreas are the losses of the 7.JG51 " consolided" with those of the II.JG1

the 7.JG51 became the 8.JG1 later, when the Gruppe expand to 4 Staffeln, one thing looks strange is that on 4. july the 7.JG51 lost the Ltn helmut Weissbrodt, on 5. dec.44 flying for 8.JG1 Ltn helmut Weissbrodt was wounded...

Rémi

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Rémi

I do not believe they are at this time, but I can't be entirely sure. What do you have on the loss of Weissbrodt on July 4th 1944? It seems that the 7./JG 51 did not file a loss for him on this date, maybe it was a MIA case and he returned?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Prien has the following for Leutnant Helmut Weissbrodt on the dates mentioned:

4 July 1944: Leutnant Helmut Weissbrodt of 7./JG 51 killed in aerial combat in Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 2" (W.Nr. 730 923), crashed at St Lo
5 December 1944: Leutnant Helmut Weissbrodt of 8./JG 1 missing in aerial combat with P-51 fighters in Fw 190 A-8 "Blue 2" (W.Nr. 173 875), crashed in Waren area, returned unharmed

Rather odd indeed! Schuelke has that Weissbrodt was killed in combat with P-47 fighters of the 404th FG, USAAF on 4 July 1944. Prien includes the losses of 7./JG 51 along with those of II./JG 1 at the time. I hope this helps for what its worth.

Horrido!

Leo

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Weber was downed over Rouen by 315 Sqn, most likely by F/L Janusz Marciniak.

That is a ~60km difference.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Returning to July 4th 1944, I have the following summary losses for the units:

II./J.G.1:

2 aircraft category 1 (missing on operational flight due to enemy inflicted damage), personnel losses are 1 officer and 1 non-officer

1 aircraft category 22 (destroyed on a non-operational flight, usually these are landing and take-off accidents or engine problems etc), in this accident no personnel where wounded or killed.

III./J.G.51:

No losses reported

(II./J.G.51 reports one FW 58 damaged with no personnel losses)

So - if Weissbrodt was one of the pilots reported by II./J.G.51 he would at least as far as the GenQu was concerned be in a MIA status, not reported as KIA. Later corrections might of course have altered this.

But - I feel that without a grave location or definite NVM report showing this to have been fatal for him we should treat this as a MIA case on both occasions until further evidence surfaces.

Of course.... when I logged into the VDK database this morning it was down for maintenance....

Regards,
Andreas B

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

That is a ~60km difference.

Not my fault. It seems German loss reports of the period are notoriously inaccurate.