dakota 43 16394

[earthling]

Hello there,

I am researching the above Dakota crash on the 11th Feb 45 on or near Upwaltham in Sussex. I am taking a relative of the pilot to the site and I feel I absolutely must be correct. It seems that either two Dakota's came down and the villagers are confusing them, or the plane having lost a wing travelled over 500 metres. Could this be possible? Can anyone help?

Adam

[Bill Walker]

Don't know about the specifics of this case, but finding a wing or two some distance from the fuselage is a text-book sign of an in-flight breakup. Wings and tailplanes tend to flutter almost straight down after they come off, while the rest of the airframe carries on for a bit. 500 metres apart is possible if the breakup occured at an altitude several times that: say 2 kilometres, or about 6,500 feet AGL.

A quick Google finds that Dennis Burke has posted the accident reports on-line. Have you seen these:

http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/C-47%2043-16394.pdf

Page three states "left wing hit the trees and was torn off ... the lift of the right wing caused the aircraft to cartwheel". That could put some distance between one wing and the rest of the aircraft.

also see http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/Crew%2043-16394.pdf

[Andy Saunders]

There has already been a considerable thread on this site about this incident.

I have a good deal of information, as does Dennis.

Look also at the posts by forum member Rustynails.

I would be happy to help and will be there when the memorial is dedicated later in August, but think we are going over old ground here?

[dp_burke]

Edited Message:
I've had an email from Dione and you are part of the team there in Upwaltham, hence I deleted my previous message which was irrelevant.

it seems your problem is that people beleive there were three crashes in the area.

Can you fully elaborate what people think occured.

There is the C-47 43-16394 and the Lancaster that are documented and for which you are having the memorial shortly.

What details are there to support a third aircraft? Do people think there were two crashes on one of the days or three crashes on three dates.

There's some mention of an aircraft, another C-47, crashing in the valley with engine trouble flying south east?

[earthling]

Hello Bill, thank you so much for these links, that is extremely helpful. The Dakota seems to have broken up they are talking about a distance of 200 metres - we are looking at 5 - 700 (according to google Earth) which is one of the reasons why there perhaps were twoAnyway, thank you again for your helpbest wishesAdam

Originally Posted by Bill Walker

Don't know about the specifics of this case, but finding a wing or two some distance from the fuselage is a text-book sign of an in-flight breakup. Wings and tailplanes tend to flutter almost straight down after they come off, while the rest of the airframe carries on for a bit. 500 metres apart is possible if the breakup occured at an altitude several times that: say 2 kilometres, or about 6,500 feet AGL.

A quick Google finds that Dennis Burke has posted the accident reports on-line. Have you seen these:

http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/C-47%2043-16394.pdf

Page three states "left wing hit the trees and was torn off ... the lift of the right wing caused the aircraft to cartwheel". That could put some distance between one wing and the rest of the aircraft.

also see http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/Crew%2043-16394.pdf

[earthling]

Hello Andy, yes I went through those files you sent and they have been extremely helpful. There was talk in the village of another Dakota coming down in the area - which I may learn more about tonight after a phonecall. I grew up in the area and recovered a part of the aircraft 5 - 700 metres to the East of the position the villagers believe Pogues aircraft came down. I have given this to the village to give to the Pilot's daughter, and they also wish me to take her up to the spot - so I would hate to mislead her. Is it possible for the Dakota, having lost a wing to still travel 5 - 700 metres?Thank you very much for all your help ( all thsoe books as well) and I look forward to meeting you at the eventBest wishesAdam

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

There has already been a considerable thread on this site about this incident.

I have a good deal of information, as does Dennis.

Look also at the posts by forum member Rustynails.

I would be happy to help and will be there when the memorial is dedicated later in August, but think we are going over old ground here?

[earthling]

Hello there, thank you very much for your help, yes I am on the team. Recorded are the Lancaster and Pogues's Dakota. I filmed a brief testimony some years ago where someone mentioned a second DAkota, and this is why I am wondering if the information is correct. Hopefully I can clarify this tonight. I grew up in the area and when a youngster came across a small part of the plane 5 - 700 metres East of the site recorded for 43 16394 - this part is being given to the daughter of the pilot and I really do want to confirm if it is genuine. HAving looked through all these brilliant documents that have come forward I believe (at the moment) that the sites are one and the same and indeed the spread was 5 - 700 metres. It's strange though that the other Dakota doesn't seem to have been recorded. Anyway will keep you posted and thank you very much for your helpBest wishesAdam

Originally Posted by dp_burke

Edited Message:
I've had an email from Dione and you are part of the team there in Upwaltham, hence I deleted my previous message which was irrelevant.

it seems your problem is that people beleive there were three crashes in the area.

Can you fully elaborate what people think occured.

There is the C-47 43-16394 and the Lancaster that are documented and for which you are having the memorial shortly.

What details are there to support a third aircraft? Do people think there were two crashes on one of the days or three crashes on three dates.

There's some mention of an aircraft, another C-47, crashing in the valley with engine trouble flying south east?

[dp_burke]

If there is another aircraft it will be recorded but we have little to go on at present, a date, a time frame in relation to the other crashes etc. TTYou may well find it recorded if you knew when it was supposed to have occured.

A lot of USAAF crashes are listed here:
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/db.asp

You can browse the monthly lists to see if any location seems familiar. Theres nothing inline similar for RAF aircraft as such other than kind folks like Andy and his like.

[earthling]

Hello, it seems the mists of time created the second Dakota, and indeed having lost a wing and it's cargo door, this aircraft travelled some 500 metres to where the villagers say was it's final resting place. I'm now confident that the piece I will be giving to the pilot's daughter is correct.

Thank you all for your help

Adam

[Andy Saunders]

Adam

Having checked all my indexes for losses in the area (including the whole of West Sussex!) I can find no trace of any "second Dakota".

Certainly this aircraft lost a wing after intial contact with a tree and then careered/cartwheeled quite a few hundred yards to its eventual sad destruction.