Bf109F lost 15 October 1941

[Brian]

Hi guys


On a website I have noted a combat loss of a Bf109F (WkNr.7677) of 4 (Eins) JFS5 on 15 October 1941 Le Havre area.

Please enlighten me!

Cheers
Brian

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hi guys


On a website I have noted a combat loss of a Bf109F (WkNr.7677) of 4 (Eins) JFS5 on 15 October 1941 Le Havre area.

Please enlighten me!

Enlighten you as to what?

BTW, this is listed as an E-7, not an F. It fits well into a range of other E-7 numbers.

[Brian]

Hi John

It surprised me that a Bf109 from the Fighter School was involved in a combat mission. Did the pilot survive?

Cheers
Brian

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

It is not necessarily true that the aircraft was lost in a combat situation (others might be able to give further information).

There are three aircraft of the unit listed as damaged/lost on this date:

WNr 7677:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113515

WNr 12691:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113516

WNr 5617:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113517

Initially there are no indications for an aerial combat in this list, usually the aircraft on combat patrol would have an 'E' in the list indicating this. The three losses for Jagdfliegerschule 5 on this date does not have this.

It woudl be of interest to see if a NVM exist for the pilot of WNr 12691, as it would probably tell us a bit more about the circumstances.

Note that I am not saying that it was no combat, I am just saying that the list and the loss reasons given does not state that it was.

And for your question re 7677: The pilot parachuted apparantly landing safely.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Chris Goss]

Experienced instructor pilots flew with JFS 5 and flew on ops hence Eins=Einsatz. Erik Mombeek's book on JG 2 and the Prien magnus opus details ops, kills and losses of JFS whilst on the Western Front in 1941

[Brian]

Thanks guys

My knowledge has been increased!

Cheers
Brian

[Bruce Lander]

Hi Brian,

"Les Pertes de la Chasse de Jour Allemonde en France" Vol 2 (Avions Hors Serie 15) by Pierre Watteeuw states :-

Bf109 E-7 (7677) 7 Blanc 100% 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Combat et propre Flak, s'ecrase: pres'Epouville, 11 km NE du Havre.
Endommage a l'atterrissage: Fl.Pl. Le Havre
pilot bailed out - not named.

In English I roughly translate that the 109 was hit by flak on a combat flight,
pilot escaped by parachute and the aircraft was destroyed in the crash
( here in Oldham we do not speak a lot of French so please excuse this attempt to translate)

Cheers

Bruce

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Brian,
gentlemen,

the three losses on this date concerned 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5, an operational Staffel of JFS 5 that saw active service on the Channel Front from June 1941 onwards. On October 15th, 1941, the Staffel was scrambled against a Blenheim formation covered by Spitfires that was attacking Le Havre. 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5 filed eight claims, six Spitfires and two Blenheims, for the loss of three Messerschmitts. Bf 109 E-7, WerkNr. 7677, "white 7", was piloted by Lt. Elmar Resch, who was shot down by friendly fire - Flak - and who bailed out wounded. For details see JFV 5, p. 482 pp.

Hope this helps

Regards

Jochen Prien

[Brian]

Hi Bruce and Jochen - an illustrious pair!

Many thanks for expanding on this enquiry. The more 'cooks' the merrier!

Cheers
Brian

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Jochen

According to the GenQu listings the pilot of 7677 was not wounded although he bailed out. This list give that Resch was flying 12691, and wounded in a crash flying this aircraft.

Do you have a VLM or other information that contradict this? Would be interesting to see it

Regards,
Andreas B