Bf110-E Werk Nr 3863, major Erich Groth

[carlmu]

In August 1941 Major Erich Groth was photographed in Pori/Finland with his Bf110-E where three of the four code characters are easily read as M8- C. The missing letter is supposed to be a T or K, that is either M8+TC or M8+KC. Anyone know the correct code?
The plane probably had Werk Nr. 3863. Does anyone have the history of this plane?
On the engine cowling there was written an uppercase A side by side with three dots in a triangle. I thought the E-series was equipped with the DB 601N (P) engine and was marked with an uppercase N to indicate the need for 100 octane fuel, according to John Vasco's excellent book about the Bf110-C/E. But does the A indicate another engine than the 601N? 601A?
Major Groth and Bordfunker Herbert Muche flew from Stavanger in South West Norway to Kirkenes in the North on August 11 or 12 in 1941. They were supposed to make a fuelling stop in Trondheim, but never arrived there. The weather along the route was bad with 0 deg Celsius and snow in 2000 m height. The crashed plane with its crew were found a year later. Remnants of the Bf110 still resides in the mountain in Ål in Hallingdal, 1500 m above sea level.
It would be very interesting to know if others can contribute further to complete this sad story, which I hope to complete soner or later.
I know a little about major Groth, but nothing about Obfwd. Herbert Muche.

[Seaplanes]

The code of this aircraft was M8+TC as stated in the loss report.
Reported missing en-route for Kirkenes on 12.08.41. The aircraft
was reported as a Bf 110C.

[carlmu]

Thank you, Seaplanes, very interesting.
Is the loss report with these data published anywhere or do I have to contact Militärarchiv in Freiburg?
The photos of the plane in Pori shows the rectangular air intake between the machine guns in the nose. According to John Vasco this air intake was intruduced with the E-series. It might have been retrofitted on Groths plane, if it is certain that the report says it was a Bf110-C.
Carl

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=142340

Regards,
Andreas B

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I think I have seen the code of this a/c in the Finnish Pori airfield logs (liaison NCO and/or air observation company). For some reason "T" does not sound right for this plane.

Does the code not show in the photos? Is it sure that Groth the plane at Pori and the one for his final flight is the same?

I will check my notes of the logs if I can later today at home. No promises. I do not have time to go check at the archives.

Cheers,
Kari

[John Vasco]

W. Nr. 3863 is one of a batch of Bf 110 E-1s built between October and December 1940 by the Messerschmitt works.

[carlmu]

Thank you John!
The RLM loss list says Bf110-C and the pilot's name as Walter instead of Erich. Two errors!? So the plane code could also be wrong? Maybe M8+KC instead of M8+TC?
I must compliment you on your book about the Bf110 C/E. I received it two days ago and enjoy all the information it gives. But a E-series plane should have the 100 octane DB601-N engine? So why the A on the engine cowling?
Greetings from Oslo
Carl

[John Vasco]

If you look through that book thoroughly, you will see some strange things! For example, photo page 12, bottom, shows a 'B' variant with squared-off wingtips which were introduced on the 'C'. And on page 13, top, a 'C' with rounded wingtips which were common up to the 'B' variant!

The point I'm making is that you can have guidelines for each variant, but what actually happened, particularly on the cross-over of variants/sub-variants, is anybody's guess. It would probably be driven by what was available at the point of production at any given time.

If that E-1, 3863, was ready to have engines fitted, and the only ones in the factory were the DB 601 A, then it is likely that the factory fitted DB 601 As, and marked the engine cowlings accordingly, so that ground crew were aware of the engine type fitted. It is probably no more complicated than that.

Take a look at page 105 of the book. That Bf 110, S9+HP, has so many odd things going on with it, that it was impossible to pinpoint exactly what it was.

It's fascinating, but can also be quite frustrating at times!

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

The DB601N was in demand at times, several of the ZG units were supposed to have the engines upgraded during 1940/41, but just had to wait.

This is in fact noted in the strength returns.

The GenQu returns state M8+TC, no doubt about that. I do not have the NVM for this loss for a doublecheck, but someone else might have it

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Beaman]

To add more confusion, I have this listed as an E-1 with additional sources as Valtonen, LW Pohjoinen Sivusta, p.359; Obermaier p123.