Observations on the victories of the Normandie-Niemen

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by ZhekaB

Hello, Laurent!

I am interested in the subject of the air operation in East Prussia and have already gathered some information. I also paid attention to the differences in the list of victories of the French pilots in the French and Soviet sources. As far as I understand it can be explained as follows. In the marching log and French sources the data of victories are primary and more truthful. In the Soviet reports the information about victories basically repeats them except for one moment: shared victories were attributed to one person (in the Soviet practice by this time they moved away from shared victories). Additionally, wanting to award Soviet decorations to certain French pilots, group victories could be attributed to them and then specified in the award submissions. I'm not sure if this was the rule. However, in my opinion, the French victory records are a more primary source. But, perhaps the distribution of victories in them may also have been oriented to awards.
Regarding the Hs.129 battle on 18.10 there is no contradiction there - French and Soviet pilots did chase German strike planes dozens of kilometers behind the front line and shot them down west of Gumbinnen as well.

Hello ZeckaB,

I agree with you, on the fact that the Russians did not recognize shared victories. Thus, in the case of an air victories in collaboration the French had to choose the name of the pilot to transmit in Russian in such a way as to optimize the attribution of the Soviet medals.
But this does not interfere with the number of planes shot down and the location of the fighting.

Regarding the sources, the Soviet archives are primary sources. These are the information transmitted by the French to the Soviets to have their victories approved.

The JM publish in 1946, is a secondary source because it has to edit to make the story epic. Regarding the list of official victories, it is later than the Soviet document and therefore likely to have been modified and therefore to be a secondary source.

In general, as in quantum physics, I admit all possibilities, unless something proves the contrary.


Concerning the day of October 18, 1944, only the 1st OIAP "Normandy" of the 303 IAD, crossed Hs-129.


The 240th IAD, only crosses Fw190 and Me 109 and shoots down 1 plane (for 200 flights), and shoots down FW 190 which crashes 15 km SW of Pillkallen / Schlossberg
129 IAD, only reports encountering FW-190s and Me-109s. Of which 3 FW 10 and 1 me 109 are shot down.
130 IAD, I did not find the report, but that of the 1 VA, does not give info on Hs-129, reported by this division.

But we can read in the report of the 303 IAD:

"Дальнейее расследование самолетов противника было прекращено, т.к. Последние вышли на свой территорию и з.а. Открыла Сильный отсечных огонь."

"further chase of enemy aircraft was stopped, because the latter entered their territory and Z.A. opened a strong barrage fire".

Which implies that the pursuit did not go as far as the longitude of Gumbinnen. Afterwards, it is possible that the French confused Gumbinnen and Stalluponen, which would be geographically more viable.

In any case, thank you very much for your answer, it is in the discussion that knowledge progresses.

Laurent COURTOIS
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