Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

One should probably then go to the existing primary sources, and try to use them, especially concerning the timelines here.

The only target information given by the original poster was 'around the battles of El Alamein' --- according to my information, the second battle of El Alamein STARTED with an allied barrage on October 23 1942. I thus find it quite interesting that the above mentioned information by me is totally disregarded, that it has no relevance. If You at all had bothered to check existing sources mr. Boak, You would have seen that the picture mentioned by me regarding the influx of aircraft to the JG 27 units show a uniform picture from March 42 through October 1942 (when they were at a low point, but still over 25 aircraft per Gruppe, and received a heavy complement of brand new Bf 109G-2/trop), and that the pilots I mentined in the above post for a large part scored heavily (according to their claims listings) from early in 1942 and up until the date I mention in my earlier post.

I am not stating that the average german airman of the time would be able to outfight the best allied aces. I only stated that the JG 27 at the time had a VERY long list of aircrew that I do believe was adequate at handling a Bf 109. Also, I have not seen any evidence that the flight we are talking about here (from 92 Sqdn probably?) comprised the best allied pilots of the time? If this was the case, it would then of course be very interesting to try to identify the pilots that were able to in a Rotte formation totally dominate the best 8 or 9 aces on allied side.

Remeber also mr. Boak, that I am trying to find out what happened, and also try to answer more than Your messages only. The quote about a few battle-worn aircraft were directed at the message by NickM.

You also have to look at the time period when trying to make conclusions here. The collapse of the Luftwaffe had not started by autumn 1942, the pilots were still doing full training courses befor being posted to an operational unit.

That is my point.

And further - a discussion like this is totally fruitless unless a source is quoted. All other is just talk.

My suggestion for further work on this matter is that we try to establish the date, and we can then focus on the available sources from that time. I know for a fact that a lot of information from Fliegerführer Afrika is available in original at BA/MA, and mr Beale is also correct, this incident should have been mentioned in the Squadron ORB, which should be available at Kew. (will start to search for it in the PROCAT tomorrow).

Regards,
Andreas

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

I totally agree that it was a generalisation; however it is described in almost every book on the Jagdwaffe, and particularly those covering the desert campaign. Is it not true that Marseille's companions - including several of the aces you name - would stand outside the combat to watch the great man in action? Was his gruppe not withdrawn from action after his death on the grounds of fallen morale? Which no doubt had deeper roots in the operational tiredness of a hard-worked unit, but proverbs about camels seem appropriate here.

I don't recall any comments about a few battle-worn aircraft. However, all the dates you quote for massive reinforcements for JG53 and JG77 are after Alamein - after the incident reported, and hence totally irrelevant. How many of the pilots you name were operational in this area and at this time?

You criticise me for requiring a "star" - no sir, I merely point out that actions described would fit such, that the entire Jagdwaffe was not populated by superbeings, and that at least one such action involving a star can be found that fits the description. Whereas no other has been suggested, as yet.

You in turn would appear to think that the lowest German pilot would obviously outclass the best Allied one - if you think that a misrepresentation, I can only recommend you study your own postings in the same light.