Erich Hartmann - several questions

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, all

I have reread mr Zampinis messages and moderated myself a bit here... originally I was going to be quite harsh but I realize that this would be uncalled for, but

I realize that you have no experience in researching the Luftwaffe loss records first hand.

Two important points:

1. If an aircraft sustained what the inspection of the damaged aircraft by technical personnel deemed as below 10% damage - in most cases this ment that the aircraft could be restored to operational status by the technical personnel and facilities available to the 'halter' (meaning unit it was assigned to) - this loss would not be recorded. (I wonder when people will start understanding this VERY simple concept)

2. If the people inside the aircraft - the so-called crew members for those not yet familiar with the concept... - where not injured, killed or reported as missing - you will not have their name recorded in conjunction to a loss at all - if you do not for some reason or another have access to for example diaries or other secondary sources were this is noted.

Judging that Nowotny's loss is not recorded by a list (even if it was very well researched) is not conclusive.

I have recorded close to 270 individual FW 190 losses for JG 54 in 1943 - and we would have to thoroughly research all of these + the ones that occured so late in 1943 that they are listed in the records for 1944 that are missing before we can conclude.

Also - regarding your angle with regards to politics and the loss records:

The loss records we usually refer to was never part of the propaganda machine. The unit responsible for it was a data collections unit that put together and analyzed reported losses from all units in order to feed statistics of the command chain at high level, to make them able to make decisions based on the situation as reported by their subordinated units. In addition they kept tabs on personnell losses - and assisted with regards to have correct forms produced in order to get information sent on to the next of kin when a person was killed in action or went missing (forms still kept at the WASt today). I have put a long article on this unit (of which I have large parts of their remaining records as a unit - not what they produced) on hold, but I see that it is necessary to finish and publish it.

I am sure that there are gaps, as is natural! Looking at for example the situation on the eastern front where we have examples of loss records for aircraft destroyed by tanks and infantry while the flying personnel were trying to evacuate, it was probably not necessarily to write down the Werknummer of the unservicable Bf 109 parked in a blast pen that was on your mind!

But to draw a line between that situation on the ground and the conclusion that the Luftwaffe Generalquartiermeister 'doctored' the records for political reasons is nonsence. If records are missing - fine - they never reached their intended recipient - the people that should deliver it were killed, the records destroyed because a train or aircraft were blown to pieces... in stead of trying to discredit the 'Luftwaffe' or 'the German people' as a whole, try to add to research by producing additional evidence with regards to a specific incident. And evidence is in my opinion not something read in a softcover book produced using other books as sources...

I have for some time believed that it will be possible, communicating with people on this board like Dénes, Nikita and a lot of others (none mentioned none forgotten), to get to the point were the research of the second world war will be about facts and trying to establish them as close as we can get without being there with cameras and notebooks (of course embedded in a nondestructible body armor that will allow us to observe without being harmed) - and not about winning some political discussion about it. Other times I stop believing...

I believe that this thread has started to swing towards what I believe to be the correct direction, but the board as a whole has a way to go.

Regards and keep up the good work all of you - and mr. Zampini do not get me wrong - keep up asking questions - maybe the most important part of this work - as long as one is willing to accept the answers with an open mind.

Regards,
Andreas B