II./JG 52 vs 15th US Air Force, 20 Mar 1945

[leonventer]

Hi Don,

Originally Posted by Don Caldwell

Düttmann's Flugbuch entry for 20 Mar 45 states, "Luftkampf mit 7 B-17s + 8 P-51s - Abschuß 1 P-51". His bio (which I don't have) says that this entry belongs on 18 Mar. ... Would you mind checking his bio and posting all of the information he has for the mission of "18 Mar"?

I've attempted to attach scans of the 3 relevant pages (around 140KB each), but I get an "Unable to move/copy file" error each time. Please send me your email address via PM, and I'll mail them to you.


After reading it again, Düttmann's statement on page 194:

"...habe ich gemerkt, dass das in meinem Flug- und Leistungsbuch genau falsch herum eingetragen ist: Die Mustang war am 18. und die Jak zwei Tage später!"

is ambiguous -- is he referring to the log book entry as it was written or as it should have been written?

Gosh, research is fun!

Indeed! Please let us know what you make of this puzzle.

Regards,
Leon Venter

[Don Caldwell]

Many thanks, Leon, for sending me the 3 pages from Düttmann's memoir. My objective in starting this thread was to ferret out data on the Luftwaffe's encounter with 15th Air Force B-17s on 20 Mar 45. I knew from the INTOPs that Bf 109s were sighted. Four B-17s were lost. I've since gotten their MACRs, and the four went down from Flak damage and engine failure -- there's no mention in the MACRs of any e/a. My only indication that II./JG 52 was involved is Düttmann's Flugbuch. But D. claimed in his memoir that 20 Mar was a bad date.

Düttmann concludes that his 20 Mar P-51 combat should be the 18th because Pitt Esser's was definitely on the 18th -- he met the American pilot postwar, got a copy of his records, etc. I'm OK with that, except that D's FB entry mentions an LK with "7 Fortresses und 8 Mustangs", and there was no bombing mission to Austria by the 15th AF on the 18th (some kind of special op can't be ruled out, but 7 would be a peculiar number.) However, his memoir doesn't mention B-17s, only a Schwarm of Mustangs. So was his real-time entry correct, or his very late post-war "prompted" memory? Or neither?

The 15th FC lost only one P-51 on the 20th, the 332nd FG bird already dismissed on TOCH. The 325th FG did lose 3 on the 18th, a major strafing mission to Austria. Two were lost to Flak, but the pilot of the third reported he was in good shape when he disappeared from the formation, and could well have been the pilot shot down by Esser. However, as this was on the 18th, it doesn't address my original question -- did II./JG 52 intercept 15th AF B-17s on 20 Mar? Neither side filed any claims or sustained any losses compatible with such a combat. The UHs of the four 15th AF P-51 groups mention no LKs with Bf 109s on either the 18th or the 20th. I'm forced to conclude that any encounter on the 20th was minor. A shame...

Don

[Nokose]

Don,
Since the Russians were so close and the number of bombers is so small it might be a misidentification. The Russian ADD had 4 engine bombers and I believe flew some daylight missions. A nine bomber formation could be about the right size. Check with Nikita Egorov about the possibility.
Michael

[Peter Kassak]

I was going to suggest the same. VVS also used American made, or in license made aircraft. And Yaks could well look like Mustang from far distance...
I would bet on Russians being spotted...

[Don Caldwell]

Hi Michael & Peter --

VVS bombers flying in daylight is indeed an intriguing possibility for either 18 March or 20 March. I don't know how good Duettmann's recognition abilities were. Unfortunately the scope of my present study is limited to Luftwaffe day fighter efforts against USAAF heavy bombers, so I won't be able to follow this one up farther.

-- Don

[RT]

In 18.March III.jg52 reported only one loss, I mean known to me , but on 20.March a lot of more 5 or 6 , 2 pilots dead Jüttner+Gawel , ge Voek wounded.

Remi

[Don Caldwell]

Hi Remi --

II./JG 52 combats on 20 March (1945) are what I am interested in. Can you give me more details on the 2 KIA and 1 WIA?

I've decided that Düttmann's changing his 20 Mar combat to 18 Mar is a "prompted memory" because his buddy's claim for the 18th is bolstered by his victim's documents. But 20 Mar matches Düttmann's FB entry better; it's just that his P-51 claim, which wasn't filed (for good reason) doesn't match a USAAF loss. However, the bombers definitely encountered LW fighters, which I haven't otherwise been able to identify.

Thanks for all your help.

Don

[RT]

Nothing for II.JG52, Just III +10.+2. JG52 are concerned, for that period we hv part of german returns + LF6 losses none show losses for the II.JG52, for the period from 12 to 22. march just 3 for that group are listed 2 on 13. 1 on 16.

Remi

[Don Caldwell]

Thanks Remi --

I've concluded that some II./JG 52 fighters did make passes on 15th AF bombers on 20 Mar 45, without claims or losses; flight times as in Düttmann's FB. This is worth noting because the sighting of LW fighters by 15th AF bombers in this theater at this stage of the war was extremely rare.

Don

[RT]

Think 7.JG52 was II. group at the time In Wirtgens log, noted Frontflug Start Hörsching 09h30 O.F. to understand as Ohne Feindberührung, Landing 10h30

Remi